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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:05 pm 
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In Revelations 1:20 could the angles of the seven churches be pastors?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:45 pm 
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"messengers" is generally the variant


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:44 am 
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I believe they were pastors but since the word angelos is used in the Greek text the word is translated as angel or messenger. I believe someone could simply translate it as a messenger since the word angel can be translated as such. The are several Greek words for bishop, pastor, elder, etc. and none of them are used in this context.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:58 pm 
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of course you must take in the aspect of apocalyptic literature .... and the clear evidence that numbers are not to be taken literally but are used symbolically

for example .... 7 is the number of perfection

c/w with Rev. 4:5

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:51 pm 
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dcljoy wrote:
and the clear evidence that numbers are not to be taken literally but are used symbolically
since there are 7 actual churches named, suffice it to say the literal interpretation is in play here -- a case could be made thru all of Rev. but hey

dcljoy wrote:
7 is the number of perfection
yes...completeness is appropriate too

dcljoy wrote:
c/w with Rev. 4:5
Is. 11:2 ties in with this, if examined in the KJV version:

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:19 am 
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cw-nf wrote:
In Revelations 1:20 could the angles of the seven churches be pastors?

My insight here was related to glory of Jesus and of the Father. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

God marked the Bible with the Number Seven because it is the fulness of God's revelation! ... The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. It is his Oath! His Promise! His Covenant!

"Joshua is symbolic of things to come - that "I am going to bring my servant the Branch."

Zechariah 3:8-10 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

For, behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; upon one stone are seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
In that day, saith Lord of hosts, shall ye invite every man his neighbor under the vine and under the fig-tree.

Zechariah 6:12-13: And you shall speak to him, saying, "So said the Lord of Hosts, saying: Behold a man whose name is the shoot, who will spring up out of his place and build the Temple of the Lord. (13) And he shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he shall bear glory. And he shall sit and rule on his throne, and the priest shall be on his throne. And a counsel of peace shall be between them [both].

Isaiah 11:1-2 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.
11:2And the Spirit of LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of LORD.

This prophesy was fulfilled when the Word incarnated and died, resurrected and ascended to God.

Matthew 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Proverbs 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house; She hath hewn out her seven pillars:
1 Corinthians 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Revelation 5:6 And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:51 am 
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What does this have to do with the OP?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:27 am 
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[for me] They are messenger´s of the seven stages of church history.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:11 am 
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unworthy wrote:
They are messenger´s of the seven stages of church history
i've seen this before yet everyone has a different range of dates for these stages -- it's interesting but not necessarily factual from the evidence i've seen


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:14 am 
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tsnody2001 wrote:
What does this have to do with the OP?

If we scrutinize the OP word “Seven Angels” we shall conclude that it correlates with following words:
Seven Chandeliers- Rev 1:20, Rev 1:12
Seven Spirits- Rev 1:20 Rev 1:4 & Zech 4:10
Seven Stars- Rev 1:20, Rev 1:16
Seven Eyes- Zech 3:9-10 & the
Seven Thunders Rev 10:3-4 which I think pertain to the glory of the Son of God. John 1:14, & Rev 1:13-15
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. John 1:14
Rev 1:13-15 And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle.
And his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire:
And his feet like unto burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:02 am 
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They could be pastors...and following the style of the book there may be a double entendre effect wherein angelic and human messengers are both somehow meant by this term.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:30 pm 
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I've read several commentaries on this and they say these are messengers not pastors except for Seiss' commentary. I guess when the simple sense of scripture makes sense seek no other sense; they are angels - God's messengers.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:04 pm 
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As long as the "simple sense" is not understood to be the simplistic sense. The two are not the same. I would say it seems rather strange for John to write to seven angelic messengers in order to convey his message to the seven churches. Instead it seems more likely that human messengers are intended even as they are understood to somehow relate to angelic messengers. When studying the book of Revelation it would be curious to only understand such a reference in these first chapters to refer to "angels" in an ontological sense given that there is further reference made to lampstands which are representative of the churches (Rev. 1:20). Perhaps the reason for "angels" may be a sense in which the message to the human messengers to these congregations is understood to be mediated by angels in a similar manner to how John speaks of receiving this account (Rev. 1:1).

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