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Another dispensation will begin when Christ comes. That should give everyone who has departed loved ones, hope and joy because it means even if they died without Christ, they can be saved.

Right now its possible to be saved by grace through faith, and not works...because Christ is unseen:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith Eph 2:8-9 NKJ

Once Christ arrives, its impossible to hope He will; Once Christ arrives, its impossible to "be saved through faith" because its not faith to acknowledge what one sees with their own eyes.

So there is a dispensation of saving by grace thorough faith and not works that exists before Christ comes, and a dispensation of being judged according to works that are equivalent to receiving Christ (Matthew 25:31-46)---which justify God having Mercy upon them and then saving them by Grace. God cannot if their free will doesn't allow it.

Acts 10:34-35

NOW its possible to believe in the LORD Jesus Christ and be saved, precisely because it requires faith in God's Word.

Once Christ arrives with His Holy angels, then every eye sees Him (Rev 1:7) and its impossible to "believe in Jesus and be saved through faith" as it was before He arrived.

The plain sense of Matthew 25:31ff is that Christ will judge the billions left alive after the Antichrist and plagues, who see Him come in power with His angels and set up His Kingdom (Rev 1:7), differently than those who had believed in Him before He came having faith in God's promises even though all was unseen.

All saved by grace and not works through faith (=the Church; My Brethren vs 40 cp Mat 12:50; 28:10; Rom 8:29; cf Mat 10:42) were already raptured during the First Resurrection (Rev 20:4-5; 1 Thess 4:14-18; 1 Cor 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16)----BEFORE Christ descended upon the earth...and they reign with Christ as kings and priests in the Millennial Kingdom He is setting up.

Rather than slaughter the billions still alive upon His arrival, Christ sets up a Millennial Kingdom and there is a Judgment that happens during this time, according to their works because now its impossible for them to have faith.

The judgment of Matthew 25:31ff must take time because the church, as kings and priests in Christ's millennial kingdom, also judge the world (1 Cor 6:2) and its impossible we judge billions of people in a short time.

The wording "Son of Man comes in glory...then He will sit" implies a duration of time; so does the separating work shepherds do in a day, "do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2Pet 3:8 NKJ) Perhaps the change from "Son of Man" (vs 31) to "King" (vs 34) also implies a new dispensation has begun:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, (Mat 25:31-34 NKJ)

Verses Mat 25:41 and Mat 25:46 shows this judgment merges with the final judgment in Rev 20:15, only then are the wicked cast into everlasting fire:

AND Rev 20:11-15 is a judgment according to their works: vs 12And the dead were judged according to their works; vs 13 And they were judged, each one according to his works.

This means John Calvin was wrong to conclude the NON ELECT are eternally dammed, that if one is not elected to salvation they are reprobated to eternal punishment.

That is a false dilemma, the NON Elect will be judged according to their works, and as Christ showed in Matthew 25:31ff...those who didn't know Christ are forgiven of that sin if they haven't sinned eternally otherwise and their works were consistent with the book of life that is opened:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

They are judged OUT OF the book of life, therefore the book of life isn't just a list of names.

That fact is confirmed in the Textus Receptus (KJV etc) but not the newer Bibles. The book of life has PARTS and isn't just names---just like the holy city and the book of Revelation:

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part
from the Book of Life,
from the holy city, and
from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19 NKJ)

But that is a disputed text.

The wording of Rev 20:12 literally it means they were judged OUT OF the books, that is, by what is written in them. This was not about checking to see if their names were there, that's not "judging out of; by the things written."

This view is consistent with contemporary Jewish belief:

It is believed that “On Rosh Hashanah all the inhabitants of the world pass before God [in judgment] like a flock of sheep” (M. R.H. 1:2). All are judged on Rosh Hashanah, and the verdict is sealed on Yom Kippur. The worthy are written into the Book of Life, the unworthy blotted out (cf., Exod. 32:32–33) or entered into a Book of Death (sometimes a third book for undecided cases is mentioned). -The Encyclopedia of Judaism. Vol I, p. 45 (Brill 2000)

Your problem is that you erroneously assume a false dichotomy between faith and works -- a dichotomy that both James and 1 John repudiate.

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If that is correct then you can explain how these, ignorant of Christ's presence, judged according to their works; were showing faith in Jesus:

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

And it would appear these are being judged according to their works, according to their conscience, not faith in Christ. So document how they are showing faith in Christ instead:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 NKJ)

Paul spoke this when the vast majority of Gentiles didn't have a clue who Jesus was, and he clearly is referring to them.

In Matthew 25 Jesus was using rhetoric to make a point. It is clear from Paul's letter to the church at Rome that it consisted of both Jewish and Gentile believers whom Paul addressed in turn. In Romans 2, Paul was addressing Jewish constituents, as can be seen in vv. 23-29, and he was evidently talking about Gentile believers (the other constituents in the church at Rome), for he says in v. 15 that the work of the law is written in their hearts, and this is a reference to the new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:33.

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AlfredP wrote:

But you missed the right context of here it was not supposed to be according to our works for this is in contrast with 1 Corinthians 13:3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

Why, are you sure by yourself that also know or have a clue if was who Jesus Christ?
Jesus said to the Jews and Pharisee in the temple; John 8:19 They said therefore unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father: if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also. Much more of you who was born only yesterday and you neither know or recognized the voice of the Son of God.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

Can you cite parallels where Christ rhetorically says what is not true, to teach truth.

Otherwise your argument is "special pleading."

As for Paul, he plainly wasn't talking about faith in Christ for salvation when he said Gentiles "are a law to themselves" and their conscience therefore could excuse them:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16 NKJ)

The confusion isn't on my end, Paul is allowing salvation is possible even for those who don't know Christ or the law...According to works...who "by nature do the things in the law."

Therefore there is a dichotomy, its real and not false.

It would be horrible to have departed loved ones who, as far as you know, did not believe in Jesus for salvation. If that is the case with you, I feel for you.

The following verse seems to preclude salvation by works.

Rom 3:20 (ESV)
20) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

"Works of law", not "works" in general. Trying to be saved via Mosaic law or any kind of works, instead of Christ, is sin and won't work.

But what of those who did that, and died unsaved. Are they dammed forever? That doesn't fit Christ's teaching "every sin" can be forgiven in the world to come:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

When mockers of the gospel spoke evil of its preachers the apostle Peter said "it was for this cause" the gospel was preached to the spiritually dead: 1)That they be liable for their sins; 2)that in Hades they could repent and know how to live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)


Same with the sinning church goer who heard the gospel every Sunday, yet clearly was unsaved, he could repent after destruction of his flesh, so his spirit may be saved (if he repents in Hades) in the Day of the Lord Jesus:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

This is what Christ taught very clearly, that in Hades people would hear His voice and those who "done good" (i.e., obey it) will come out unto a resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)


I've been a believer for over thirty years, and during that time accepted the idea my parents are in Hades...I loved God more than them...BUT I should never have been subjected to that gospel the early church didn't preach. THE NT church clearly teaches salvation by grace alone, not works for all who believe in Christ in this life during this dispensation, and a salvation according to works for all who failed to believe now, but waited till after He returned, or after they died.

Rev 20:11-12 is a judgment of the billions of spiritually dead left remaining from Christ's millennial kingdom after Gog and Magog are killed. They are judged according to their works.

Rev 20:13ff is a judgment of the rest of humanity when the dead are raised up from Death and Hades and judged according to their works.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
(Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)

Its clear Matthew 25:31-46 provides the key, the works God looks for are consistent with what is written in the Lamb's book of life, all whose acts were functional equivalents to "receiving Christ" (Mat 25:33-40), are granted Mercy and then God's grace saves them.

So millions of folks like my parents, when in Hades, get an educational attitude adjustment, and must pay for their sins. But all who repent will rise on Judgment Day, unto life if they didn't sin eternally while alive, like blaspheme the Holy Spirit or worship the antichrist...or like Korah, offer strange fire...things like that.

"Loved" was a typo, I meant "I love God more than them":

37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (Mat 10:37 NKJ)

If what I posted were wrong, I'd repent and continue loving God with all my heart.

But its not. What is wrong is medieval exegesis that carried forward Catholic premises that necessitated a sotereiology that is grossly inconsistent with the premise of an Infinite God Omniscient, Omnipotent, and love. It is impossible God create on purpose, an infinite universe to save only a select few, while condemning billions to eternal punishment.

The God of the Bible would be able to do much better than that.

& so ends the discussion...

so you know it's not wrong yet refuse to discuss it with your pastor -- how long will you keep him in the dark -- shouldn't your great revelation be shouted throughout your church?

nt

Alfred wrote:

If this marvelous things happened the dead is much lucky than you because even they were already dead they have enable to hear the voice of the Son of God who was alive and preaching the word of God but doesn't hear or recognized His voice.

How could you love thy Lord which you cannot see if you could not love thy brothers that you see? Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 6:2Honor thy father and mother (which is the first commandment with promise), 6:3that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Why? have you read if what is written in the Book of Life? Are you sure that you are enlisted there? What is your name in heaven as suggested in Isaiah 62:2 & Isaiah 65:15 And the nations shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory, and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of LORD shall name.
Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen; and the Lord God will slay thee; and he will call his servants by another name:


Yes, that is the sorry statutes of all who died without knowing Jesus Christ and unable to hear his voice. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
I know you will not answer this again because you are denying that you doesn't know the voice of the Son of God.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

When Paul says in Romans 2:14 that certain Gentiles are "a law to themselves," he's saying they have no need of an externally imposed law because, as he goes on to say, the work of the law is written in their hearts. On that basis their consciences either approve or condemn the things they do or might do. And the reason that anyone by nature does the things in the law is: "Christ in them, the hope of glory," who engenders in us the desire to walk in love and holiness and also empowers us to do it. In Christ, we are new creations sharing in his death to sin and in his life to God (Rom 6).

I didn't say that what Jesus said in Matthew 25:34-40 wasn't true. The use of rhetoric doesn't mean one is not speaking the truth, which is evident in Christ's use of fictitious parables to teach truth. What I'm saying is that you have misread the point which Jesus was trying to make. He wasn't saying people will be saved by works. That's nowhere in the text. And if that were possible, then it would not have been necessary for Christ to die. The Lord's point in the passage was that one's place in the judgment will be consistent with the way that he lived. The merciful will obtain mercy and those who are judged righteous will be those who have walked with Christ according to the royal law of love, for to live by faith is to walk with Christ. A secondary point is that Christ so identifies with those who belong to him by faith that he counts the treatment accorded to them as treatment accorded him.

If a man could be saved by works, he would not need mercy or grace. But there is no salvation apart from God's mercy and grace.

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ – by grace you are saved! – 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

As the apostle Paul put it, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). The law of sin and death says the soul who sins will die (Ezek 18:4; Rom 6:16, 23). That is justice, and God is just (Deu 32:4). It is Christ's atoning sacrifice alone that makes it possible for God to remain just while justifying those who have sinned (Rom 3:25-26). And this he does for those who are "in Christ" by faith. There is no justification apart from faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).

Alfred, I am very sorry for your loss. Believe me, I know what that's like. But Jesus said,

Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Context (NET)

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You contradict yourself, you have the conscience approving, but God condemning for what is approved.

Also you failed to support the claim " And the reason that anyone by nature does the things in the law is: "Christ in them, the hope of glory."

On the contrary, the reason is their God given conscience, that is the implied premise of Paul's words.

Its unusual you didn't argue "12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law" (Rom 2:12 NKJ)." However that would fail as the context makes clear "sinning" here means "not doing what one knows is right":

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; (Rom 2:11-13 NKJ)

Just as the doers of the law are justified, so are those who act in accord with their conscience.

However, its not a weighty objection salvation be by grace through faith and not works NOW in this dispensation:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NKJ)

Because I agree 100% none are saved by works during this dispensation. All who fail to believe in Christ in this life go to Hades, unsaved---and remain so until Judgment Day when their cases are reviewed.

I propose this dispensation of grace versus works is evident in Mat 25:31-16, after He arrives salvation by grace through faith is impossible, for then one cannot hope He will arrive, then He is here; One cannot believe in the unseen, for then He is seen. So salvic faith is impossible in that dispensation:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 NKJ)

This is why Ezekiel (c. 40-48) saw the Temple in God's Millennial Kingdom. While most suppose Christ sacrifice pays for the sins of those alive during the Millennial Kingdom, if that were true no one would be put to death during that time: " But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed." (Isa 65:20 NKJ) That is, will be put with those who have sinned eternally, to await the judgment of condemnation (John 5:28-29; Rev 20:13-15).

Christ's sacrifice covers those who believe now in this life, and all on Judgment Day who repent and did the equivalent of receiving Christ as Jesus detailed in Matthew 25:31-46.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

Clearly the millennial kingdom, which culminates in one last test of unsaved humanity when Satan is released from his prison, is a dispensation of works, not grace.

In Rom 2:14 its clearly a judgment according to works, whether one does what is in the law, or acts according to their conscience.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)

Paul's overruling thought is none can be saved apart from Christ, whether one is in the law, or out of it, all fall short of the glory of God, none are righteous. But it does not follow God would stand idly by while billions go off into eternal punishment…

We see that in the example of those God hardens to do His will on earth, they were NOT reprobated to eternal punishment:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:25-33 NKJ)


So Calvin is wrong, Election saves the remnant, and a judgment according to works made possible by the propitiation of Christ saves most of the rest. Only the children of the Devil are eternally lost.

Jesus said in John 10:1-4 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
v.2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
v.3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
v.4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. (ASV)

John 10:26-29 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
v.27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
v.28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
v.29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (ASV)

So, if you want to be place in the right together with all of Jesus sheep be sure that you know His voice because Ecclesiastes 9:10 manifest that; Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7