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its a question i get asked, or that gets brought up around me a lot... and im curious if anyone has a fully researched and biblical answer to it..

i feel as though im being tempted into the catholic church because i want to learn about the psudopigrapha(sp?) [mainly the story of michael vs satan] anyway i know that's not Jesus who should be my main focus so i hold back from buying a catholic bible and Jude gives us all the information we need about it anyway.

im just curious, please don't be offended if your a catholic im not trying to step on anyones toes, its a sincere question, from a brother in Christ moving out of being fed with milk to honey and i just need some help chewing

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To Live is Christ, To Die Is Gain

The answer would be the same if you asked, "Are Baptists (or Presbyterians, or Methodists) saved?" The answer is, some are and some aren't.

Regards

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

Quick comment...the Pseudopigrapha are not found in the Catholic Bible. The Apocrypha (or Deuterocanonical) writings are found in the Catholic Bible. There is a fairly significant difference between these texts. As to your question...I would simply echo what Jimd has written.

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Some Catholic churches preach salvation by works (the church is the "dispenser" of God's grace which can be earned through merit), other churches preach salvation soely through Faith in Jesus Christ. This varies throughout churches and people so a "one size fits all" doesn't work here. Met a of saved practicing Catholic myself, found him friendly and pleasant to talk to.

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Studying MDiv. (Biblical Studies) at Tyndale Seminary
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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

Usually I only read posts, but I feel a need to comment here. My short answer is to quote Jimd and say "some are and some arn't", but I would like to expand on that a bit more. (Be forwarned; this is going to make some of you angry.)

Back in 1979 shortly after John Paul II was elected pope he was shot, and, upon his recovery, he claimed that Mary had saved him. In addition to that, I have heard rumors that he wanted to pronounce Mary as a "co-redemer" with Jesus Christ; to the first statement I would reply, "yeah, whatever", but the second, if true, is blatent herasy. I do not use that term lightly or flipantly as I consider it the worst accusation to use against any single person. A one time statement like that is a misunderstanding or misinterpretation, but the incessant teaching of the church during his reign of "Mary this" and May that" is proof (to me at least) that he believed and preached a herasy that will have far reaching consequences for years to come. Suffice it to say he was a heratic.

Enter a new Pope, Benidict XVI: My wife gave me a book written by him for our anaversary titled "Jesus of Nazereth", of which I have read almost half of the first volume, and have yet to find anything I disagree on, and indeed, agree with most everything he has said! (He did make the mistake of saying that the book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century BC; Daniel wrote in the 5th.) So far, from what I have read, it is a very thought provoking book with some interesting insights and ideas of who Jesus is and what he has done: I would recomend this book to anyone. I had a good feeling about this Pope since his ellection, and am glad I have (so far) been proved right.

My point is this: anyone in the Catholic Church, including the Pope, (or any denomination for that matter,) can know Jesus Christ as Lord and come to faith in Him, or teach (and accept) false doctrines leading to eternal judgement.

Don M.

Hi, DQ! Welcome to the forum's 'active list'. Good to hear from you. You may well have persuaded me to get hold of a copy of Pope Benedict's book.

"Jesus of Nazareth" was a wonderful read (from my perspective Andy). Pope Benedict is a very gifted Catholic theologian and historical Jesus writer (even when I've disagreed with him). I trust you would enjoy reading this book at least (and likely some of his other works).

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Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
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...not exactly...in this case "co-" is a translation of the Latin "cum-" meaning "with" (as in "Magna Cum Laude")...it is a recognition of Mary's free assent to bear Jesus, just as we - with free assent - choose Jesus as our redeemer...

Mary is human, just like all of us are, and needed a Redeemer in Jesus just as much as the rest of us do.

Its more complicated than simply claiming that Pope Paul said "Mary saves us"...that's not how it works...

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

DogHouse -- it's nice to have a Catholic perspective in here (again) as there aren't many who post

I'm a refugee from Crosswalk/Christianity.com - boat landed just the other day.

...I'll be here in a defensive role...as I was there...

Thank you for your gracious welcome.

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

Kind of a curious way of putting it...perhaps the Spirit is leading you there...


Catholics view Protestant Bibles as complete, having been stripped of parts that a single man didn't like particularly well...


You'll find my skin to be as thick as required...I'd like to think I respond in kind to the manner in which statements are asserted and questions are asked...


This is incorrect. There is no Christian faith system that instructs that salvation is earned. If you have a teacher telling you that this is going on in some Churches, then go find yourself a teacher, rather than a rumor-monger or mythologist.

Salvation cannot be earned anymore than physical fitness is "earned" through regular exercise...it simply doesn't work that way.

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

Interesting analogy. Could you elaborate on the parallels?

St. Thomas Aquinas is the one who has given us a model of just how a free will can operate with grace, given the complete sovereignty of God. I highly recommend a review of his writings for more insights into this type of analogy.

Aquinas says that "self" is composed of "intellect" and "will". Intellect is where we take inputs and observations, and analyze them in the decision making process. Will is what we engage to enact our choice, it is what "does" what is decided.

The will and the intellect operate in an environment of "motives" and "appetites". Motives are what cause the intellect and will to work against the appetites, which are the baser desires and hungers. For example, to put this in terms of someone like Calvin, for example, the appetites are our "depravity" (for want of a better term) - they are our "nature".

Participation in right-relationship with God is a desire, born out of motives. Discipline is that which is required to utilize the motive effectively to overcome the appetites, and will Godly decisions (and indeed to make them in the first place).

As we continue to participate in a right-relationship with God, our appetites change - they can be curbed or modified. As we use discipline to align our will with God's will for us, our appetite for sinful choices is diminished and it requires less discipline to follow God. Aquinas tells us the using motives to compel ourselves against appetites is developing "habits".

Thus, according to Aquinas, the conversion to righteousness by living a life of faith, and honoring it with a cooperation of our will with God's for us, is an actual conversion to real righteousness.

Aquinas says it all better than I ever could. I tend to push back against what I understand of Calvin, as from what I have read, Calvin could have studied Aquinas more (Aquinas pre-dates Calvin by about 400 years...).

In this model, salvation is not "earned", but it is the result of a process of conversion, as the appetites are curbed by participating in a faith-relationship, with God, by way of grace.

As sin tends to reinforce the appetites, and "un-do" this conversion, it is to be avoided. When we do trip-up we are to confess our sins (if you are not Catholic, find yourself a supportive Christian friend for this - you can help each other out...) and repent of the sins.

The third or fourth time you find yourself having to confess the same sins to your friend will reinforce your motivation to force more discipline upon your choices, and this can lead to a continued modification of the appetites, as new habits continue to be formed and developed.

...very practical stuff in a faith-walk, as far as I am concerned, no matter what your denomination or Church affiliation...

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

There are some saved people in the Catholic church. Some people who get saved feel the need to leave the Catholic church at that time or shortly thereafter. Some don't.

I think Evangelical and Protestant Christians should remember that our connection to the Catholic church is a long and complicated one. On the one hand, the protestant reformers found genuine problems in the Catholic church, and those problems led to an actual separation. Some of those problems have been remedied. But not all.

On the other hand, the scripture we take as our final authority on matters of faith was handed down by Catholics for nearly 1500 years, and during that time most Christians were either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I suppose there were a few Coptics and Maronites, and like that. Much of our legacy comes down to us through the hands of Catholics, prior to the reformation.

The good news is that Bible reading is actually growing in the Catholic church. The bad news is that some wrong teaching, like salvation by both faith and works, tends to get repeated quite often within that church. I'm holding back on what the official Catholic doctrine is on salvation by faith. I'll let Catholics speak to that.

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Not all those who wander are lost.