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Gideon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:17 pm 
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Interesting bit of info, John. Where did you find that?

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John Chaplin
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:41 am 
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Name of your church: Formally;Water of Life Ministries under the Baptist Union; hardly anyone in the church knows that. It's in the biggest little town in Oz.
chabad.org and

Passover Life tips

About Judaism

There is a Wikipedia article on the passover seder

The Jewish Magazine

I have also now looked at Torah Musings which also has an interesting variety of liberal to conservative comments on women and reclining.

I have never been aware of any difference for men and women in communion (apart from who can lead communion), but that may just be a limitation of my historical knowledge.

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Gideon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:10 am 
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Thanks, John. I have to wonder about the genesis of the idea that reclining at the seder meal symbolized the conduct of royalty. I don't doubt Eliyahu Kitov's explanation, but I question how the rabbis came to their conclusion.
Eliyahu Kitov wrote:
Maimonides writes: One is required to see himself as if he had just now left Egyptian slavery. Hence, when a person eats on this night, he is required to eat and drink while reclining, as a sign of freedom. ...

The basis for the practice of reclining is based on the verse (Exodus, 13:18) that states: And G-d brought the people around. The Hebrew word "to go around" is very similar to the word "to lean," and the Midrash deduces from the similarity of the two words that everyone, even the most humble or poor Jew, is required to recline at the Seder as if he were a nobleman.
I'm not sure if Maimonides' commentary reflects a practice and understanding that comes from the first Passover or a symbolic practice instituted at some later date based on who knows what. And the reasoning of the Midrash seems quite a logical stretch to me. I guess my real question is how far back the "symbolic practice" of reclining at the Passover meal goes and whether it had that meaning for Jesus and his disciples.

I was very intrigued, however, by Wikipedia's description of the seder step known as Yachatz (breaking of the middle matzah)
Quote:
Three matzot are stacked on the seder table; at this stage, the middle matzah of the three is broken in half. The larger piece is hidden, to be used later as the afikoman, the "dessert" after the meal. The smaller piece is returned to its place between the other two matzot.

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John Chaplin
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Gideon,

I am finding this subject quite fascinating. I am also skeptical about some of the interpretation, though I am open to learn more. I am afraid that my knowledge of midrash is only at the awareness level and that Jewish hermeneutics seems to be as varied as Christian.

The discussion on women reclining I find interesting because of the discussion of obligation. It seems wrong-headed to me to talk of obligation in the context of a feast day given for joyful remembrance of freedom. It seems to me that if you have the passover or Lord's Supper feeling under obligation rather than joy then you don't get it. A bit like "This is your birthday celebration so you have to enjoy it."

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