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Exactly why is homosexuality such a hot button issue in the USA denominations? It gets some coverage here in Australia but more as an echo of the USA situation and the USA concerns than because it is an issue deeply troubling to Australians; one exception is the Sydney Anglicans, they seem to get rather caught up in these kinds of issue.

Cheers

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

The issue here what the bible says - not what particular churches might or might not say.
Scaramouche summed it up for me:

And Rene's:

It involves "speaking the truth in love" - no easy task, but the one we are called to.

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Avid Reader

“Lord, in my zeal for love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love.” - Thomas Aquinas
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I can tell when somebody is drunk when they are "obviously drunk" but how am I supposed to detect sexuality? Am I equipped with some special ability to see into the psyche and detect who likes boys and who likes girls and if they are fornicating or adulterous? {those are mostly rhetorical questions }

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

I guess for me in a very practical way there are two issues I have.

1. People who publically proclaim that they are christian homosexuals - people who openly practice and advocate homosexuality as an acceptable way of life as a follower of Jesus. I have a problem with these people calling themselves Christians as much as I have a problem with Christians advocating drunkeness, abortion, or having sex before marriage.
"With such a man do not even eat.." (1 Cor 5)- I don't consider this kind of behaviour normative for Christians, and It casts doubt on the veracity of the conversion.

2. Members of the congregation or leadership of a church who suffer from homosexuality and want to be set free from it, but struggle. For these people I have compassion (i have compassion for all people, as we are all sinners in need of a saviour, not just the penintent). I realise their struggle with sin is the same as anyone elses, the same as my own. Over time I would expect with the power of the holy spirit that they become stronger and more able to resist temptation. As Christians we do have some power over sin, but it is only the power of the Holy Spirit working through us. Fortunately Sanctification is a life long process, moment by moment as Schaeffer said.

Why is this a big issue for those in the Church? Well it runs completely counter to the proclamation that "Jesus is Lord". If Jesus is Lord, then the sex god's our culture worships are not. Their time is up and they must submit. This is not to say we get out there with a militant Christianity, but rather we proclaim the Lordship of Jesus to every facet of life in love. The Gospel does not allow us to leave sin unconfronted, and I strongly agree with Scaramouche and Avid Reader here. Speaking the truth in love is no easy task, but is our task none the less.

None of us are equipped with special abilities to see who is doing what in their own bedrooms between supposedly consenting adults. If we do posess such abilities, we are normally arrested for an invasion of privacy .
I guess my major gripe is that some people within the church think there is nothing wrong with being homosexual and feel it is OK to advocate this lifestyle. Personally I feel it is rejection of the image of God. When someone who professes to be a Christian advocates this lifestyle, then what they are saying on a deeper level is "I reject the image of God I am made in, and do not want to be restored to that image, I want to be my own creator."

Thats my two cents. Comments?

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USA denominations??? The RCC is public enemy #1 in the USA. Most liberal socialist Western countries have totally refused to stand up to the radical gay agenda. Many churches have openly "gay" practicing clergy-- including leadership. This is one small example, it came up first in a search:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E948260

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

granttheking98, would it be helpful to tighten up the way we use words? because it seem that both "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality" are used in at least two very distinct ways in English:

• As a description of the kind of attraction a person feels; homosexual if one is attracted to people of the same sex and heterosexual if one is attracted to people of the opposite sex
• As a description of sexual activity; homosexual if one has sexual relations with people of the same sex and heterosexual if one has sexual relations with people of the opposite sex.

The ambiguity of the words makes it hard to decide exactly what is being denounced as sin.

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

Dailybread, thanks for the good comment. But I don't see the Bible making any such distinction. From what Jesus said both would be considered sin.

Matt 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

The principle is that the intention to committ the sin is as bad as committing the sin. But thats not where my beef is.

What are we to do with these people in the Church? I think a key is in separating leadership from church membership. Even though every member leads others in some ways, culture is normally driven from the top down. When members of the Clergy are openly homosexual and approve of it as a normal christian lifestyle, what do we do then? Do we treat them the same as people who come along to weekly services or do we treat them differently. Why is my question either way you answer.

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Linking adultery and lust to sexuality is probably not very helpful for this issue since homosexuals are not married (from a church perspective) and therefore can't commit adultery - fornication yes, but not adultery. Lust is common to both heterosexuals and homosexuals and is present in marriage as well as out of it, so it too is probably not very helpful for this particular issue.

My question for you is what does "openly homosexual" mean? Do you, for example, mean engaging is sex acts with a person of the same sex and making that fact widely known?

And also, why distinguish between the members of the congregation and the clergy on this issue if it is a moral issue?

From my perspective morals apply to clergy as well as laity and even in denominations what no such distinction is made - denominations that do not have a formal ordained ministry - morals apply to all of the people in the congregation.

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

People in leadership have a responsibility to live the truth of the word. Promoting something they are clearly against is scripture (getting drunk, adultery, homosexuality, gossip, slander, murder etc) is not for leadership to do, its not for any christian to do either. Of course the same morallity applies to all whether in leadership or not. But how can someone claim to be saved and leading a congregation while openly promoting anti-biblical values? If they are they should not be leading, but should remain in the church receiving all our love and support to help them through their struggles. I guess it comes down to the validity of the conversion of the individual leader. I don't think leaders need to be perfect, no one does, but there needs to be evidence of conversion before someone can lead in a church.



I think you've missed the point here - the intention in the heart is as bad as the action thats the clear message from that teaching. Jesus says it unequivocally with murder and anger in the same chapter. I don't think Jesus' intention in saying this was to get technical and say now this principle applies only to married people who can committ adultery etc. I think the principle applies a little more generally than that. God searches the heart and all its intention.

What do I mean by openly homosexual ? I mean either engaging in it willfully and approving of the behaviour and teaching others that if they feel this way inclined it is ok and natural for people to continue on this way.
If they are not engaging in homsexual activities, but still promoting it as a valid option for Christians I have a problem too.

After reading John Burkes book - "No perfect people allowed" this question has become redundant, and he has answered a lot of my questions. Its a great book.

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I suspect the perfect people are welcome too.

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

to diverge a little ...

what a terrible grief it is that so many clergy and others attached to the Church are being prosecuted for sexual abuse .... usually of young boys .... and so of course, bringing in the question of homosexuality.

Horrible that it brings the church into disrepute, horrible that in so many cases the church itself hushed the evidence up for many years .... and terrible above all that it happened at all!

in Christ

Dinah

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It seems that the majority of prosecutions are for paedophilia (since adultery & fornication are not defined in the criminal code any longer) with members of the opposite sex; usually adolescent girls.

It is terrible, and I guess it is a diversion ...

Cheers

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

Adultery is still criminal in South Korea. A top actress was recently convicted . I think in her case she got a slap on the wrist. It's unevenly enforced. Much like alleged child abuse, it often comes up during a bitter divorce trial.

Thing is, as I recall, S. Korea still has very high rates of adultery!
S

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. In a passage Paul had to deal with the Corinthians when they allowed a sexually immoral man within their midst. Nothing was done about it until Paul asked them to expel the immoral brother from their midst. They were to turn the individual over to satan so that he would understand the brevity of his sin and then be restored within the congregation. If the individual cannot or will not shun his/her way of life they will have no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. I've done extensive research as a friend of mine asked what the Bible said. Romans 1 tells a lot about it in detail.

I would personally leave any church who allows a homosexual to remain within its wall as a member when there is no visible sign the homosexual is attempting to leave his/her lifestyle. I know the Lord is longsuffering, but we also must remember that Paul gives strong heeds in the Bible about associating with those who are immoral. I could never support a church that allows homosexuals as members without attempting to help them forsaking their lifestyles.

Hey Jennifer I understand what you are saying but would you still feel the same if any other sin was listed? For example in the same passage concerning who will not enter the kingdom of heaven it included this is how your paragraph would read



and remember an idol is anything that takes the place of god - a lot of people "in the church" are liars and their possessions are their idols - funny thing is we never hear of anyone speaking out against that...



just my

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Jennifer Dent
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