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I guess I will have to go back and read DIB a little more carefully. However, when I did read his works (both his papers and his book) I often felt he made invalid leaps to come to the conclusions he did. He doesn't seem to treat divorce and remarriage as seriously as I believe it is treated in Scripture. Note: there is a whole lot on this topic on which I agree with DIB, but I just think he takes a few too many liberties with his interpretation of the evidence and ends up treating the topic a little less seriously than I believe was intended in Scripture.

The claim that both Matt. texts refer to an exception only for "betrothal" is simply not valid. A historical reference for this claim simply does not exist and the context of the passage doesn't allow for that interpretation.

And while you are correct in your assertion that Jesus' never commands divorce and that the instruction given in Duet. 24 was given because of man's hardness of heart. One of the things you have failed to notice is that when a man has divorced and remarried, Duet. 24 commands him to not ever again return to his former spouse. Clearly the marriage vow has been broken in this circumstance.

While I do believe that the exceptions given for divorce in Mt. 5 and 19 are valid exceptions to the general rule of no divorce and remarriage, I do believe that far too often these verses are used as the "free ticket" that allows (or even demands) divorce and that I believe is a huge misinterpretation of these verses. Mt. 5 seems to be very clear about the idea that even a "legal" certificate of divorce is itself not sufficient to end a marriage in the eyes of God. I believe that forgiveness and reconciliation should be the rule even in cases of infidelity even when a "divorce" has taken place, but it should also be recognized that there are some rare circumstances where reconciliation is not possible even when a spouse has been forgiven. The one absolutely clear example of this is when a subsequent marriage has taken place after a divorce; in that circumstance we are prohibited in Scripture from reconciling the marriage. While I do believe other types of sexual infidelity, like the rape of a daughter, can be serious enough to end a marriage, I do not believe Jesus ever intended this "exception" to be used in the way it is so frequently used in the church today. One of the reasons I believe Jesus chose to use the word "porneia" when giving his exception is that in Greek it always carried a sense of very serious sexual sin. Unfortunately in the modern church we have taken this in almost completely the opposite direction by interpreting this to mean any sexual sin (even lust) and that simply was never how this word was understood within the culture were Jesus spoke these words.

I was reading the writings on divorce and remarriage by well-known pastors and theologians like John Piper, John MacArthur, Douglas Wilson, John Murray, John Frame, etc. and they all say, despite differences in detail and exegesis, that even if the second marriage was based on biblically unlawful grounds (for example, the first marriage was broken on unscriptural grounds - not adultery or desertion) that it still stands in God's eyes as a covenantally valid marriage. Therefore, even if you broke the first marriage for let's say "incompatibility reasons" (an unbiblical reason) but got remarried to someone else (which is an adulterous act), you are still bound to the second marriage just like your first one.

It's amazing how some people twist the Bible to say that a second marriage must be forsaken because that constitutes an ongoing adulterous situation. It's also amazing how certain groups, usually ignorant fundamentalists or legalistic cult groups, say that if you remain in the second marriage you've lost your salvation and are destined for hell.

I agree. That is why even if a second marriage is an adulterous act, it is never a grounds for a divorce from the second husband or wife.

Well, that is quite an arrogant statement. I can counter and say that I find it rare that Catholics get the nature of the gospel right but then again I understand since most of you are so indoctrinated by the false teachings of your church.

It's truth, not arrogance. Divorce and remarriage is very clearly condemned by our Lord in all four Gospels.

"And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)

"And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, commits adultery." (Mt 19:9)

"Every one that puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery: and he that marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." (Lk 16:18)

To the woman at the well, St. John records Jesus saying the following: "Jesus says to her: Go, call your husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: You have said well: I have no husband. For you have had five husbands: and he whom you now have is not your husband. This, you have said truly." (Jn 4:16-18)


Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

So the Catholic Church redefines the terms as "annulment" rather than "divorce." Thus, by your own words above, "...for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God." (ESV Matthew 15:6)

Where is it Jesus taught that remarriage should not happen? Where is it that we find these people should not be offered grace and enough of it to rebuild a life after such things. Jesus condemns divorce and the way it's being promulgated but not remarriage. Paul the Apostle definitely gives freedom to remarry though I think the circumstances are a bit different.

It seems to me that Jesus deals harshly with those who've used what God has allowed outside the boundaries God placed upon it. Even with the Woman at the Well (John 4:1-42) she found grace and reconciliation. Even though Scripture does not reveal the rest of her life, other than her testimony in Christ which brought a whole town to Him, are we to believe she lived her life in that time period without remarriage? True, she received a reality check from Jesus. However, in the midst of that reality, she was given grace.
Shall we say that the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11) went away from that place in her life and never married? If she had married after that (surely she would've been divorced or perhaps never married), was she sinning against the Lord?

As pointed out, I also find this arrogant. I can find many a Catholic using birth control in contradiction to their faith. I'm sure just as many Catholics as Protestants are gulty of abortion. In many areas of faith and life I can find just as many Catholics as Protestants not doing "what is right."
I think it is very unfortunate that we must deal with issues of divorce within the church like we currently are. So many families, and so many children are hurt and destroyed by the hard hearted adults who've been sold a bill of goods by our culture regarding marriage & divorce. But when these precious people finally come to the church and seek help. We are tasked to help them rebuild their relationship with God and help them find forgiveness and restoration. We are not tasked to condemn them and judge their past in doing so.

Ephesians 2:2-3 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest… Context (NET)

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Blessings,
Randy
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There is no such thing as divorce in the Catholic Church. A person is not free to leave his / her spouse (divorce civilly), and then go marry another. This is very clearly condemned by our Lord in all four gospels. It is called adultery.

An annulment is not a divorce, but rather a declaration that a marriage is null and void. As with all contracts, they can be declared null and void. For example, suppose I have a serious alcohol or drug abuse problem that I purposely hide from my fiance. We marry and only after we marry does she find out about my drug problem. It is now to the point where I am out of control, losing my job, stealing and physically abusing my spouse. My spouse, had she known about my drug problem prior to marrying me, would never have given her free will consent to marry me. I have deceived her and therefore she entered into the marriage contract without full disclosure on my part. In this example, the marriage contract could very well be declared null and void.

Another example of what an annulment is not. Suppose I marry my fiance and we settle into family life and start to have children. Ten years go by and as with all marriages, we have our ups and downs. I decide to register on a popular social network and reconnect with an old girlfriend from high school. We start emailing, texting and private messaging frequently. We decide to meet one day for lunch. One thing leads to another and I start to develop an emotion attachment to this old girlfriend. Time continues to go by and I decide I want to leave my wife of ten years and marry this old girlfriend of mine that fate seemingly has brought back into my life. We divorce and I marry this new person. In this example, there is no grounds whatsoever for an annulment. I have committed adultery by marrying this other person.




Our Lord is explicitly condemns divorce and remarriage in all four gospels.

"And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)

"And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, commits adultery." (Mt 19:9)

"Every one that puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery: and he that marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." (Lk 16:18)

To the woman at the well, St. John records Jesus saying the following: "Jesus says to her: Go, call your husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: You have said well: I have no husband. For you have had five husbands: and he whom you now have is not your husband. This, you have said truly." (Jn 4:16-18)

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

And what does Jesus tell the woman at the well about her husband? How many does she have being that she has remarried multiple times? Does our Lord say she has only one husband?




There is a difference between what our Lord teaches and those not living up to those teachings. The Catholic Church teaches one cannot divorce and remarry. That some Catholics do this does not make void the teaching of Christ or His Church. Rather, it shows they are sinners (of which of course I am). It is not arrogant to say the Catholic Church teaches one cannot divorce and remarry because our Blessed Lord condemns this. It is not arrogant to say Protestant churches X,Y and Z permit divorce and remarriage, contrary to the teaching of Christ. I commended that poster for recognizing the truth about divorce and remarriage and choosing to not remarry after divorcing. I lauded this decision because it is rare in Protestantism (because divorce and remarriage is permissible).

You bring up abortion and the point again is the same. The Catholic Church very clearly condemns as sinful the act of abortion. That someone chooses to have an abortion does not mean the Truth that it is sinful no longer exists. Rather, it means someone sinned and did not act in accordance with that Truth. Since you bring it up, like divorce and remarriage, there are Protestant churches that teach abortion is not sinful (e.g. the United Methodist Church as one example).



We are seeing the fruit of a culture where divorce and remarriage, divorce on demand is permissible. The result is the destruction of the family and family life, all time high rates of out-of-wedlock births, contraception and its twin sister abortion, and now the acceptance of homosexuality.

I am not advocating condemning someone for their past. However, rather that sweep Christ's teaching on divorce and remarriage under the rug, it is a serious issue that should be addressed.

Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

The problem with your unbiblical and traditional Catholic view is that it denigrates marriage by stating that the second marriage (even if it is grounded upon biblically unlawful reasons) is not covenantally valid in God's eyes. I know many respected bible scholars who would strongly disagree with the view that after a second marriage is consummated (even on unbiblical grounds) that the spouses must divorce and return to the original partners.

But, having said that, there is a more serious problem with your view (which I alluded to another thread regarding the biblical orthodoxy of the Catholic and Orthodox view of salvation). If, let's say, a person as an unbeliever wrongly divorces from his or her first spouse and years later gets married to another person and has children. Some time after the second marriage, the person recognizes his or her sinful condition and turns to Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation (he or she becomes a Christian). Are you saying that the new believer must now divorce from his or her second spouse and reestablish conjugal relations with his or her original spouse or he or she will remain in perpetual adultery and be eventually condemned at the final judgment?

To me that sounds like works-righteousness heresy. You're basically saying that the person in question will forfeit his or her new standing in Christ unless he or she returns to the original spouse. I think any system of salvation that states that we need to obey God's law in order to maintain our righteous standing before God comes under the anathema Paul declared in Galatians 1:8-9 (meaning, if you believe in salvation by works you're headed for damnation).

Please explain how the traditional Catholic view denigrates marriage by insisting that marriage be between one man and one woman. I suppose you think marriage would be strengthened if it was between one man and two women or one woman and two men?

How do your respectable bible scholars reconcile your position with the very clear teaching of Christ, who condemns divorce and remarriage in all four gospels? He calls such a person an adulterer and affirms that a second marriage would not be valid in God's eyes.

"And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)



In your hypothetical example, I cannot speak for marriage in Protestantism, for as is clear, most have no problem with divorce and remarriage. If a Catholic, however, leaves his spouse (presumably what you would call civil divorce) and "remarries" another, that second marriage would not be valid. For again, Christ is very clear: "And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)



I responded to your assertion in that other thread. I await your answer there and we can continue the topic of salvation in that thread. To answer your question here though, yes, you must keep the commandments. I'll leave you with this, again from our Blessed Lord:

"But if you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Mt 19:17)

"If you love me, keep my commandments." (Jn 14:15)

Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

Therefore, in your twisted hermeneutics, the person should divorce his or her second spouse and return to the original spouse or else the person will forfeit his or her place in the Kingdom? I'm not surprised why so many Protestant biblical scholars don't even take Catholic "scholarship" seriously these days.

campion -- allow me to ask you some simple Qs so i understand your take

do you believe Jesus Allows divorce if the spouse commits adultery?

where do you see the anulment process in Scripture?

thank you

Paco, the Catholic Church does not permit the practice of divorce and remarriage under any circumstances. The reason being is our Blessed Lord said it is not permissible. "And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)

Divorce does not end a marriage. Rather, divorce is a permanent separation of spouses recognized by the authority who grants it, such as a civil court or judge. However, a divorce does not change or remove the obligations to the marriage bond. One can be an innocent victim of divorce, and there are certainly circumstances which may justify a separation of spouses, but remarriage is always morally wrong.

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

How do your Protestant biblical scholars reconcile the words of Christ, who very clearly condemns divorce and remarriage in all four gospels?

Seems it's not Catholic scholarship you don't take seriously these days, but rather the words of Christ.

"And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)

_________________
Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas