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Gentlemen - please stay on topic

Paco and DB, please discuss RC doctrines in the appropriate forum.

dcljoy
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Well, if you or your prof ever do, please PM me so I can read it. My views are pretty liberal, I suppose,
but I want to be influenced by the bible as much as possible and I want different viewpoints or perspectives. In case you missed it, some of the book you spoke of can be read here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z-MDLR ... &q&f=false

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

This is interesting to read. For me this is a practical concern. I was divorced in 2000 AD. I wanted to know what God thinks of this and how He sees it. I don't want to follow some interpretation of Men that wasn't what Jesus taught and the early church believed. I have to live by this.

So I went to the source.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 1 If a man marries a woman and she does not please him because he has found something offensive in her, then he may draw up a divorce document, give it to her, and evict her from his house. 2 When she has left him she may go and become someone else’s wife. 3 If the second husband rejects her and then divorces her, gives her the papers, and evicts her from his house, or if the second husband who married her dies, 4 her first husband who divorced her is not permitted to remarry her after she has become ritually impure, for that is offensive to the Lord. You must not bring guilt on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. Context (NET)

Malachi 2:13-16 13 You also do this: You cover the altar of the Lord with tears as you weep and groan, because he no longer pays any attention to the offering nor accepts it favorably from you. 14 Yet you ask, “Why?” The Lord is testifying against you on behalf of the wife you married when you were young, to whom you have become unfaithful even though she is your companion and wife by law. 15 No one who has even a small portion of the Spirit in him does this. What did our ancestor do when seeking a child from God? Be attentive, then, to your own spirit, for one should not be disloyal to the wife he took in his youth. 16 “I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, “and the one who is guilty of violence,” says the Lord who rules over all. “Pay attention to your conscience, and do not be unfaithful.” Context (NET)

Matthew 5:31-32 31 “It was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a legal document.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Context (NET)

Matthew 19:3-12 3 Then some Pharisees came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful to divorce a wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 Jesus said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, but from the beginning it was not this way. 9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.” 10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the case of a husband with a wife, it is better not to marry!” 11 He said to them, “Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are some eunuchs who were that way from birth, and some who were made eunuchs by others, and some who became eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who is able to accept this should accept it.” Context (NET)

Mark 6:17-18 17 For Herod himself had sent men, arrested John, and bound him in prison on account of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because Herod had married her. 18 For John had repeatedly told Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” Context (NET)

Mark 10:2-12 2 Then some Pharisees came, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” 3 He answered them, “What did Moses command you?” 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her.” 5 But Jesus said to them, “He wrote this commandment for you because of your hard hearts. 6 But from the beginning of creation he made them male and female. 7 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother, 8 and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 10 In the house once again, the disciples asked him about this. 11 So he told them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” Context (NET)

Luke 16:17-18 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tiny stroke of a letter in the law to become void. 18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery, and the one who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. Context (NET)

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 10 To the married I give this command – not I, but the Lord – a wife should not divorce a husband 11 (but if she does, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband), and a husband should not divorce his wife. Context (NET)

Romans 7:1-3 1 Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is lord over a person as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of the marriage. 3 So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she is joined to another man, she is not an adulteress. Context (NET)

For 1500 years after Jesus walked among us, His followers didn't allow divorce or remarriage until King Henry the Eighth. While there is an allowance for divorce it was only found in the Gospel of Matthew as presented to Jews. It wasn't found in the Gospel teachings for the Gentiles. Among the Jews divorce of a betrothal was allowed prior to marriage. Paul specifically says only death ends a marriage covenant. Jesus pointed out that Moses not God allowed men to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. John the Baptist commanded Herod to send his brother's wife away. The consequences to the "new family" was immaterial it seems.

The more I studied the more I realized I couldn't remarry until my spouse dies. So I remain as I am so I won't commit adultery.

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I am a stranger in a wicked and adulterous land. I look forward to returning home one day.

1st, let me say i am sorry for your situation & the inherent pain it has caused everyone involved

i'm not sure this makes sense -- do Christians not apply what Jesus Said in the Gospels simply because most of us are not Jews? -- does something like Matt. 22:34-39 only apply to Jews?

what is your view on 1 Cor. 7:12-16?

this is how we should view all matters

but where does God's Forgiveness come into play? -- we sin every day & sins are generally equivalent -- so driving over a speed limit is a big thing too

i believe the Church lacks insight into this topic -- we're collectively missing something -- the focus of the divorce argument in Matt. 19:3 seems to be over the "any cause" view held by some @ that time

i think this is something that requires a great deal of study & i have not done so -- should my situation be 1 where i am divorced & seek to remarry, may God Guide my decision -- &, may He Forgive me if i my choice is sinful

i do not know what the correct view is -- i know some churches tend to view divorce as the unpardonable sin -- this elevation of divorce has always seemed erroneous to me -- nevertheless, i pray God Give you peace in this area & Guide you

& should someone enter your life down the road...& it appears a mutually edifying arrangement Blessed by God to marry...may God Forgive you (*if* marrying her is a sin)...& may you redouble your efforts to honor God & her within the new marriage covenant

It's been noted elsewhere on this forum, but in order to understand the texts you've listed, you really need to read David Instone-Brewer's book on Divorce and Remarriage.

When you see the context of this material — especially the citations from the gospels — they read very differently from how they appear to read when viewed from our modern vantage point.

It's way too involved to present on a forum like this, but read in their original context, these passages are not a blanket prohibition on remarriage.

I spent 3 years researching this after I read those passages that specifically address the topic. I read commentaries. I read several books including the ones mentioned in the thread. I have prayed over this for several years. So I did not to come to this quickly or easily. Learning to be obedient to God in this hasn't been easy.

From a reference I read several years ago..... divorce was only allowed among the Jewish followers of Jesus during a betrothal but not after a marriage had occurred. Gentile followers needed no divorce to end a betrothal back then because it was needed prior to the Messiah's coming. This is the reason for the single reference to this and only in the Gospel teaching for the Jews. As can be read in the three Gospels passed on to us Gentiles there is no such allowance. This isn't something to be glossed over but rather to be studied diligently because it shows a distinction that we must understand. There is a reason that used to be obvious but we have downplayed the significance of it over the last 400 plus years. Besides the general commandments that apply to all, there are a few passages that apply only to Jews and others only to Gentiles. I will make a distinction just as the leaders of the early Church did when they discussed what commandments we as Gentiles were supposed to follow.

Matthew 22:34-39 is relevant for all followers of Jesus. It is a general command. But there are clear statements that remarriage is adultery. As far as how Matthew 22: 34-39 applies to the specific passages on divorce and remarriage. It comes back to loving God. God knows who loves Him by their obedience to His commands and teachings. I show my love to my brothers and sisters by pointing to the truth by not only living by it but engaging in the uncomfortable discussions this normally leads to.

As far as 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 is concerned I point out the obvious distinction that Paul makes in the passages. 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 concerns the married/divorced and it is a command of the Lord. While 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 concerns everyone but the married/divorced and is only from Paul and not God. Verses 12-16 have no bearing on the married or divorced.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned God commanded divorce in Matthew. But go back and reread it. Jesus points out Moses allowed it because of the hardness of the hearts of the divorcing. Then He contrasts how different that is from God's intent and command at the beginning. God joins a man and woman together and they must not be separated. If God makes them one how does a purely man-made procedure separate what God has joined?

Forgiveness comes into play when there is penitence. Do I continue in sin because I desire to continue sinning? Or isn't it the fruit of my faith and how we are all known as followers of the Most High? Didn't God say in Malachi He acts as judge against those who remarry violating the covenant with the first spouse? I see that clearly in Malachi 2. BTW this passage caused much lost sleep and worry when I finally paid attention to it. "No one who has even a small portion of the Spirit in him does this." in regards to divorce in Malachi 2.

I have had several women express interest when I was keeping my distance and I have told them I am bound by the marriage covenant till one of us dies as Paul reminds believers in Romans 7. I remain as I am.

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I am a stranger in a wicked and adulterous land. I look forward to returning home one day.

I'm not underestimating the amount of research you did. I'm just suggesting that the sources you consulted likely weren't taking into account the material DIB cites in his groundbreaking work.

Specifically on Malachi 2, the older versions fail to recognize that the text is talking about a man who divorces his wife without proper grounds. The text simply doesn't say that God hates divorce. The verb 'hate' here — of which God is not the subject — is a technical term for divorcing without proper cause. ESV's rendering comes closest to my take on the verse:

The "man who hates and divorces" is the man who divorces his wife without the proper grounds outlined in Exodus 21:10-11.

Romans 7 mentions only death and does not mention divorce as a valid dissolution of a marriage because divorce isn't relevant to Paul's metaphorical application of marriage. DIB cites a marriage contract from 92 BCE:

There is no doubt whatsoever in the context of Greco-Roman culture that this does not mean Philiskos is not permitted to remarry in the event of Apollonia's death. DIB offers a much fuller explanation than I can post here.

Marcus, I truly appreciate and respect your decision to deprive yourself of marriage because of your belief that God forbids it to you in light of your earlier decisions. But you're imposing something on yourself that God is not imposing on you, and in your teaching you're attempting to impose it on others as well.

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All translations of Scripture and other sources are my own unless otherwise noted.

marcus -- "and whatever is not from faith is sin" -- hence, you are doing what you deem honorable & correct before God -- this is a righteous path you walk

i have not reached the same conclusions on this matter as you as of today -- tomorrow, another conclusion may be Revealed to me, dunno -- because this is a debateable area is why i bring up the forgiveness aspect -- for me, were i in your shoes & then remarried, it would not be a sin in *my* eyes -- i would ask God's Blessing on the union & His Forgiveness if i misunderstood His Word -- i do not believe this would be breaking tenets like Rom. 6:1

fwiw -- i do not believe a believer can "lose" their salvation -- nevertheless, we must strive to obey God & know His Will

it may be helpful for those examining this issue for you to share some of your sources -- your offer to share your take is appreciated as many people are weighing this issue

i sense your pain so do not want to diminish your struggles over this doctrine -- it is clearly a very weighty matter & 1 not done w/o a great of time on your knees & in study -- i respect that -- but since my conclusions are different, i'm trying to balance my words while understanding your view -- i hope that is apparent in my posts

I am a little surprised you are recommending Instone-Brewer's book. He does have some good information in his book but he takes some leaps that I do not believe are justified. His position ultimately is that divorce is ok as long as you make sure to follow the prescribed law regarding divorce. In other words, he basically equates Jesus' position with that of Hillel. I find this argument very difficult to swallow, especially when you consider all of the other issues addressed in the sermon on the mount and how Jesus raised the bar beyond what Hillel or any other Rabbi had taught. It makes little sense that Jesus would raise the bar for every other issue but simply hold the status quo for this one.

Not sure where you're deriving this from DIB. Not that I wish to get into an argument over who has the more accurate reading of DIB — these days I find it difficult to summon up the time and energy to argue about who has the proper reading of Scripture, much less of a commentator — but that's not how I see his position at all. In DIB's paraphrase,

I don't see how this statement can be reconciled with the teaching of Hillel.

Marcus,

Very well said. I admire you for your strength in choosing to do what is right. I find this to be rare among Protestants, who permit divorce and remarriage.

God bless you.

Oremus pro invicem,
Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

does not the Catholic Church approve of "annulments"?

many a wealthy Catholic had a marriage annuled in order to re-marry -- no harm, no foul


more importantly, as i mentioned previously, while i disagree with marcus' conclusions, i applaud his devotion to walking what he believes is the righteous path

Do courts invalidate contracts where one party withheld information from the other prior to entering into the contract? Yes, of course they do.

So too can the Church declare null a marriage. For example, if I marry a person but withhold from that person that I have a serious problem with abuse or alcohol prior to entering into the marriage, then I have withheld information from my spouse which may have affected his / her decision to enter willingly into the marriage. I have misled that person and therefore in this example, it would be grounds for a declaration of nullity.




And many poor have also had marriages annulled. Wealth or financial means is not an impediment to marriage. Just ask Henry VIII, who at the time of his request for an annulment was the wealthiest man on the face of the earth.




Divorce and remarriage is condemned by our Lord in all four Gospels.

"And he says to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another commits adultery against her. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery." (Mk 10:11-12)

"And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, commits adultery." (Mt 19:9)

"Every one that puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery: and he that marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." (Lk 16:18)

To the woman at the well, our St. John records Jesus saying the following: "Jesus says to her: Go, call your husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: You have said well: I have no husband. For you have had five husbands: and he whom you now have is not your husband. This, you have said truly." (Jn 4:16-18)


Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas