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Do we need more gun control than we have, or less?
We need more gun control - explain below 17%  17%  [ 2 ]
We need less gun control- explain below 75%  75%  [ 9 ]
We should leave well enough alone 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 12
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:00 am 
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From a 2008 Gallup Poll:

Quote:
A solid majority of the U.S. public, 73%, believes the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the rights of Americans to own guns. Twenty percent believe the amendment only guarantees the rights of state militia members to own guns


...and where we disagree...

Quote:

While the American public backs the view that gun ownership is a constitutional right, Americans favor having legal restrictions on it.

In the same poll, 49% favor stricter gun laws than exist now and 38% would like to see gun laws remain as they are. Just 11% advocate gun laws that are less strict.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/105721/publi ... -guns.aspx



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:07 am 
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...I actually meant to post the previous post in the Florida shooting thread. In any case, I believe the current laws on the books are about right. There are some exceptions of course...like my home state whose legislatures are convinced we should bring back the OK corral to our public spaces : )


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:24 am 
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I have a gun and I carry one everyday its part of my job, I also work in a counter terrorism unit along side with US Customs and US Coast Guard and terrorists are not so much about killing people with guns that they are afflicting mass causalities ,You probably in most cases want see it coming if its terrorist related..


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:24 am 
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marcus wrote:
The Terrorist Watch list is so loosely run from what I've read I wouldn't want anyone's rights infringed by mere suspicion. It is an extra-judicial means of denying someone their rights without due process of the law. As citizens we must always have the right to face our accusers and defend ourselves. Claiming national security and denying you access to the evidence or rumors against you........ That's fascism and something I served to keep out of this country.


I thank you for explaining this. It is certainly food for thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:25 am 
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wing2000 wrote:
...I actually meant to post the previous post in the Florida shooting thread. In any case, I believe the current laws on the books are about right. There are some exceptions of course...like my home state whose legislatures are convinced we should bring back the OK corral to our public spaces : )


And I am so grateful that you posted it to this discussion! :bounce:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:27 am 
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Eeyore wrote:
I have a gun and I carry one everyday its part of my job, I also work in a counter terrorism unit along side with US Customs and US Coast Guard and terrorists are not so much about killing people with guns that they are afflicting mass causalities ,You probably in most cases want see it coming if its terrorist related..


So you feel that terrorists don't necessarily have an interest in guns, as opposed to bombs, etc? I am not sure I understand your position.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:29 am 
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I am going to copy-paste something EXTREMELY thought-provoking that Strider33 shared in the other thread:

Quote:
Strider33:

I think you are right that the vast majority supports the second amendment. But that doesn't mean that the majority is monolithic in its opinion about what the second amendment really means.

Let's take assault rifles as an example. There are people whose primary reason for supporting the second amendment has to do with sports and hunting. For those people a ban on assault rifles, or restricting them to carefully controlled rifle ranges is no big deal. They might worry about a slippery slope, but they don't worry directly about having to hunt without an assault rifle.

There are people whose primary support for the second amendment has to do with personal protection in situations where the police won't be on the scene until it's too late. This includes armed guards at a bank. It might also include George Zimmerman while he was out making his rounds. Those people don't need assault rifles either. In the context of this discussion, it's interesting to note that George Zimmerman had stepped outside the rules laid down by the neighborhood watch group he was supposedly acting with.

There are some people whose primary support of the second amendment is based in the idea that armed insurrection is the last line of defense for the people, if the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the government all conspire to deprive people of their essential liberty. Insurrection is a lot like warfare, and an assult rifle might be exactly what's needed for this purpose.

Now this last reason for having a second amendment might seem truly outrageous to most readers. Indeed, I myself don't think we are anywhere near the kind of national crisis where armed insurrection is even remotely appropriate. But you have to take into account that the folks who passed the second amendment were thinking somewhat along these lines.

It's also worth recalling that, when the election of 1800 failed to produce a president, people began stockpiling weapons outside Washington DC, preparing for the eventuality that Congress would fail to resolve the cirsis. It's also worth noting that some "extreme preppers" include heavy weapons in their preparations.


Excellent points!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:58 am 
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Assured wrote:
So you feel that terrorists don't necessarily have an interest in guns, as opposed to bombs, etc? I am not sure I understand your position.
When was the last time there was a terrorist attack (an attack with the purpose of inflicting mass casualties and widespread terror) on U.S. soil using a firearm? A single terrorist with a gun is a lot less effective than a single terrorist in control of an aircraft or in possession of even a small quantity of chemical weaponry (like anthrax). Instead of further restricting Constitutional rights, how about we implement more effective terrorist counter measures, like, I dunno, inspecting at least some of the tens of thousands of shipping containers being unloaded every day at multiple ports on both coasts?
Strider33 wrote:
There are some people whose primary support of the second amendment is based in the idea that armed insurrection is the last line of defense for the people, if the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the government all conspire to deprive people of their essential liberty. Insurrection is a lot like warfare, and an assult rifle might be exactly what's needed for this purpose.
While I generally agree, I would differ in that the 2nd Amendment isn't the last line of defense, it's the first. The 2nd Amendment is what safeguards the rest of the Constitution. I would say it is the last line of defense against a foreign invasion. In the 18th century, the idea was that every able bodied man in America would have the most advanced weapon of the period: a flintlock musket. Today times have changed. I personally think we should replicate Switzerland, where almost all able bodied men are given basic militia training and issued an assault rifle to be kept in their home. In fact, they have one day a year where they bring their firearm to a range and certify that it is in proper working order, and that they can shoot it. Think that's extreme? When's the last time Switzerland was invaded?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:03 pm 
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I'll be a bit unpopular, but I don't see any reason that every functioning firearm should not be registered. Every first-time gun owner should go through a firearm training program that includes safety and legal responsibility. It's also easier to buy a car than to buy a firearm at the local Flea Market in my part of the woods.

Firearms for defense (including type of ammunition) should be looked at based on actual needs. If I live in a condo or apartment and I fire my handgun, will the bullet stop when it hits the target or continue? If I miss my target how many people will be potential recipients?

If I live in an isolated are, my possible need for firearms is different than living in an urban area or a heavily populated suburb.

I am surprised how many legal gun owners I know give no thought to the potential for deadly mistakes. The Zimmerman case may at least serve to get more gun owners to think about their responsibilities before the lock and load.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:11 pm 
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I think in addition to the concerns you raised, Cow, that alcohol and firearms make for a deadly mix. Alcohol can contribute to deadly "mistakes" being made.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Alcohol is a deadly ingredient for most endeavors except staying at home. :wink:

I maintain weapons suitable for militia use. Just as the last century saw governments behind all the genocides, I see the threat today still. I want the government handicapped if they decide we can't make decisions for ourselves or if they want to simply make us do what they wish.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:26 pm 
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What I said was, "armed insurrection is the last line of defense".

The people who make the point that Hitler took individual's guns away are implicitly making this poinr.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:30 pm 
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As far as terrorists ans guns is concerned, you have to look at that guy in Norway. His home made bomb only took 8 lives. He shot something like 67 people.

If we include berserkers as well as terrorists, the kids in Columbine used home made bombs and guns. It was the guns that took the lives.

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Last edited by Strider33 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:36 pm 
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As far as interpeting the constitution goes, I'm strongly in favor of the idea that the constitution does not change its meaning just because times have changed.

The second amendment means what it has always meant, even if that meaning has been rendered obsolete by the forward march of history. If we want to change its meaning, we have to amend the constitution again.

This can be enormously inconvenient, awkward, and slow. But the alternative is to say that the constitution means whatever the majority wants it to mean, or perhaps whatever the majority on the bench wants it to mean. That's the road to tyranny.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:22 pm 
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Strider33 wrote:
As far as terrorists ans guns is concerned, you have to look at that guy in Norway. His home made bomb only took 8 lives. He shot something like 67 people.

If we include berserkers as well as terrorists, the kids in Columbine used home made bombs and guns. It was the guns that took the lives.


Yep. Bombs may be scary, but they're difficult to build and deploy effectively. A gun is a much more effective tool for mass murder.

-Dan.


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