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If this is what David Wilkerson was talking about, he's no more a prophet than Fareed Zakaria, who wrote an entire book about this very topic - as he calls is, "The Rise of the Rest" (vs "the Rise of the West"). This is not judgment; it's the inevitable (and widely predicted) result of other nations lifting themselves out of poverty.

Ironically, this is also the reason that conservative political tendencies towards bullying other nations into submission will be less and less effective in the future: other nations will be less reliant upon us and we'll have less leverage over them. We'll have to shift to a more diplomatic approach to getting our way.

-Dan.

God judged his chosen people - the Children of Israel. Inferring that the United States (or any other of the 200 plus countries in the world) are subject to the same judgement is, IMO, bad theology.

Jesus came to save all people (regardless of national creed or origin). He called us to live as His example on earth. On that alone we will be judged.

I found this in researching this about Roman empire ..And from the looks of things around us we are ignoring the lessons from which the Romans learned to late..


"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not traitor, he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared." - Cicero, 42 B.C.

If I'm not mistaken, The Rise of "The Rest" was written by Alice Amsden in 2003. Maybe you were thinking of Zakaria's The Post-American World, written in 2009. And of course a number of similar books have come out in the last dozen or so years. In contrast, David Wilkerson wrote The Vision 40 years ago. Wilkerson was a pastor who never claimed to be a prophet. In fact, he categorically denied that he was one. But one does not have to be a prophet to receive divine revelation (cf. 1 Corinthians 12 and 14) and Wilkerson's life as a man of God was exemplary. Also, there is no reason to assume that logical consequences and divine judgment are mutually exclusive.

It's clear from even a cursory reading of the Bible that God judges nations (plural). Just some of the examples in Scripture are the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Psalm 96:10-13 10 Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns! The world is established, it cannot be moved. He judges the nations fairly.” 11 Let the sky rejoice, and the earth be happy! Let the sea and everything in it shout! 12 Let the fields and everything in them celebrate! Then let the trees of the forest shout with joy 13 before the Lord, for he comes! For he comes to judge the earth! He judges the world fairly, and the nations in accordance with his justice. Context (NET)

I think you are conflating earthly judgment with eternal judgment. Even Romans 13 makes it clear that earthly rulers are instruments of God's judgment. And John's Revelation is full of divine judgments in this world that precede eternal judgment.

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Yes, thank you, my mistake. "Rise of the rest" is merely the slogan that Zakaria likes to repeat ad nauseum in the book and practically everywhere else he can.



What's the difference between having a prophecying about the future and relaying the details of a divinely-inspired vision of it? AFAIK, that's the definition of prophecy. However he may have chosen to label himself, he's, at best, splitting hairs.

Frankly, there's nothing in this vision (there are 4 parts, I've only made it through the first 2 so far) that convinces me of anything other than the fact that vague claims can be manipulated to fit practically any situation be they delivered in the form of visions, prophesies, horoscopes, or carnival mind readings.

Several of his prophecies are little more than the paranoias that were popular back in the day, such as a one-world-church run by the Pope and nude dancing, seyances and other occult practices becoming accepted practices in church. And at least according to wikipedia, his predicted persecution against charismatic catholics never materialized.

-Dan.

The so-called Prophecies have been around for at least the forty years I've been a Christian. Wilkerson, Lindsey, et al, have no special insight. many of their specific predictions have been way off (Wilkerson admitted such in his later years).

To predict the nation and the world are going to Sheol in a handbasket is not prophetic.

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"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State;
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You've misread me, Dan. Any believer may receive divine revelation, including prophecy (even if he or she does not have a "gift" of prophecy, etc.), but that does not necessarily make the person a "prophet." While "all" may prophesy (1 Cor 14:5), Christ has given prophets (along with apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers) specifically to equip the saints for ministry (Eph 4:11-14). To prophesy speaks of an act, perhaps even a repeated act, in which all believers may engage, but to be a prophet speaks of an ongoing leadership ministry to the church. Wilkerson didn't deny that his vision was prophetic; he only denied that he stood in the office of a prophet. And perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that he acknowledged he was not a prophet, for to serve in that role would be an honor.

I'm not here to defend the genuineness of the vision that David Wilkerson said the Lord gave him. I believe it was genuine even though some of what he saw has not yet come to pass. Others are free to think of it as they wish. And others may not see the hand of God at work in the world, as I do. I've shared my own perception and prayerful conviction, and others are free to consider it or dismiss it as they choose.

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Gideon,

I think it's important to point out that prophecy is essentially about speaking the truth.
It's not always about predicting the future. To be sure, there is scripture that says that one way to test a presumed prophet is to see whether his predictions come to pass. And prediction that goes beyond anything that we expect natural forecasting to be able to do is a strong indicator that something supernatural is going on.

But prophets sometimes speak the truth about the present. For example, John the Baptist was speaking prophecy when he said that Herod's marriage was unlawful.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

& therein lies a big reason while our country will panic -- of course, if we'd live within our means TODAY, we could better absorb the shock of the USD being replaced as the world's currency

you may want to peruse the Bible some more -- God Judged far more than just Israel in the OT -- Zech. 14 & Rev. 6-19 are examples of future Judgement

there is Judgement regarding individual salvation, too, but it is not the only thing in the mix

Gideon already made the above 2 pts so i'm agreeing with him

Yes, you are correct. Israel and the nations surrounding her were judged and for what purpose? To illustrate what happens to God chosen people if they disobeyed. God had a Covenent specifically with the Children of Israel. No one else.

And yes, there are scriptures predicting various judgements by God at some point in time. I submit it is not for us to say what is or is not a judgement from God in the present day. Our time on this earth is but a speck in history and our perspective is biased by our own experience living in a wealthy, powerful nation.

What does the verb "to judge" mean?

In the book of Judges, the people who became "the judge of Israel" became "the leader of Israel".

When we speak of God's judgement are we also speaking of leadership, or is it something else?

Did God favor the USA more than other countries in the two hundred years from 1775 to 1975? If not, how did we become wealthier than most other people? Or are "we" really all that wealthy?

If God simply withdrew His special favor from the USA, would the USA not revert to being about as wealthy as the rest of the nations? Would this be perceived as God brining the USA under judgement?

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Not all those who wander are lost.

And who is to say God's favor means material wealth?

Among other things God's favor means being protected from this......

Romans 1:18-32 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, 27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. 29 They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them. Context (NET)

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I am a stranger in a wicked and adulterous land. I look forward to returning home one day.