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Was the Florida Shooting Justified "Under Stand Your Ground"?
Yes 8%  8%  [ 1 ]
No 38%  38%  [ 5 ]
Undecided 54%  54%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 13
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:40 pm 
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The information is still spotty and in some details may prove incorrect.

My take on it is that both Travon and George were standing their ground, with tragic consequences.

But there is plenty that went wrong. While the police may prove correct in their assessment that there was no basis to arrest George, there was plenty of reason to cordon off the shooting scene and gather forensic evidence before it could be carelessly destroyed. And they could have interviewed George more extensively and taken a formal statement from him while his memory was still fresh. You don't have to have cause for arrest to do that.

The involvement of Neighborhood Watch as an organization is unclear. If George was "self appointed" does that mean he was acting outside of Neighborhood Watch'srvie purview? If he was acting on behalf of Neighborhood Watch, why was he armed? What level of control and responsibility does Neighborhood watch have over its volunteers?

Once the 911 operator said "We don't need you todo that (follow Trayvon)" why didn't George break off the pursuit and let the police take it from there? Why did George get out of the truck?

Why didn't Trayvon get away from George as his girlfriend reportedly advised him to do over the cell phone?

Of the many 911 calls George is reported to have made in recent months, how many turned out to be valid? Is the number of calls out of line, or is it typical of these volunteers?

All in all a very sad business. And worth a more considered and careful response that the surge of internet fanned outrage.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:13 am 
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Gideon wrote:
I think the police should have at least treated the scene of the incident as a crime scene so as to preserve the evidence, which they apparently didn't do.


That's a better way to express what I was trying to say. Thanks.

Some of Mr. Zimmerman's neighbors have spoken well of him. If he made a bad decision, that doesn't mean he is a "bad person". Anyone that takes another person's life should be held to account. If it was self-defense, then good. But it just doesn't have that ring to it. Guesss the next step will be going to the Grand Jury.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:10 am 
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I agree with strider and cow here.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Gideon wrote:
I think the police should have at least treated the scene of the incident as a crime scene so as to preserve the evidence, which they apparently didn't do.


:hello1:

Excellent point Gideon! (I don't envy that grand jury...)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:27 pm 
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According to current reports, The police had been asked to consult with federal attorneys on cases of homicide. (Accordingly because of previous cases which were botched by this police department.) The on-scene investigating officer wanted to make an arrest and was over-ridden by the prosecutors office.

There is alot here that is being politicised and I take issue with a picture of a 12 yr-old Martin being shown over a more recent picture. At the very least it makes one wonder why? Perhaps because it's easier to petition and protest when the boy looks so innocent and small.

Gideon wrote:
I think the police should have at least treated the scene of the incident as a crime scene so as to preserve the evidence, which they apparently didn't do.
Again, we don't know what they did or didn't do. What we know is what a bunch of hyped-up protestors and evidently biased news agencies are claiming to get everyone into a lather. What we know is that the New Black Panthers are issueing a bounty on Zimmerman. What we know is that our illustrious President has "piled-on" to the hype with his less than exemplary comments. What I see is a man being tried in the court of opinion by a bunch of folks without any knowledge of the facts. What I think is that this is all a bit shameful including this thread itself. Why? Because it asks people to make a judgment before the facts of the situation are made plain. Because those judgments are more about appearances than they are about the truth. :x

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:47 pm 
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RTCrudgi wrote:
What I think is that this is all a bit shameful including this thread itself. Why? Because it asks people to make a judgment before the facts of the situation are made plain. Because those judgments are more about appearances than they are about the truth. :x


I agree. But more than half of news reports invite us to come to some sort of conclusion with a tiny fraction of the facts. It's seldom as emotional as this, and it seldom provokes large scale death threats.

News travels faster than ever. So do gossip and rumor.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Quote:
RTCrudgi:

According to current reports, The police had been asked to consult with federal attorneys on cases of homicide. (Accordingly because of previous cases which were botched by this police department.) The on-scene investigating officer wanted to make an arrest and was over-ridden by the prosecutors office.


The bolded phrase sent a chill through me. Oh no!

No wonder the local people are so angry. There is a problem, and maybe not just with this law.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Quote:
But more than half of news reports invite us to come to some sort of conclusion with a tiny fraction of the facts.



Just over half?

I definitely believe we have not seen the whole story (as most posters have acknowledged here). However, in this instant-news-entertainment culture in which we live, speed, conflict (real and manufactured) and sensationalism are valued over accuracy and thoroughness. It's not just this story, but almost every topic covered. The more sensational, the more "hits" a story receives and hence, the more it's repeated over and over across thousands of venues.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Quote:
What we know is that our illustrious President has "piled-on" to the hype with his less than exemplary comments.


He was asked a question. He answered. What was "less-than-exemplary" in your opinion?

Quote:
Q Mr. President, may I ask you about this current case in Florida, very controversial, allegations of lingering racism within our society -- the so-called do not -- I'm sorry -- Stand Your Ground law and the justice in that? Can you comment on the Trayvon Martin case, sir?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I’m the head of the executive branch, and the Attorney General reports to me so I’ve got to be careful about my statements to make sure that we’re not impairing any investigation that’s taking place right now.

But obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through. And when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids. And I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this, and that everybody pulls together -- federal, state and local -- to figure out exactly how this tragedy happened.

So I'm glad that not only is the Justice Department looking into it, I understand now that the governor of the state of Florida has formed a task force to investigate what's taking place. I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen. And that means that examine the laws and the context for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident.

But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and that we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-off ... -president


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:33 am 
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wing2000 wrote:
What was "less-than-exemplary" in your opinion?

We have a local commentator & Radio Talk show host which I believe answers your question quite well.
Mark Davis March 28th article Re: Trayvon Martin

Assured wrote:
No wonder the local people are so angry. There is a problem, and maybe not just with this law.
The "local people" didn't escalate this issue to national attention.

I agree completely with Davis's article noted above.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:48 am 
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I refrained from voting until now because I was unsure about whether I was getting the whole story. Today I saw an article that has started to paint a little more clearly the other side. Here are a couple of excerpts from this article that can be found here: http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/115 ... g-out.html




Quote:
The teenager [Martin] was suspended from school three times this year. In October, he wrote obscene graffiti on a door at his high school. During a search of his backpack, campus security officers found 12 pieces of jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that they thought could be used as a burglary tool, according to a school police report obtained by the Miami Herald.

When campus security confronted Martin, he told them a friend had given him the jewelry, but he wouldn’t give a name. The Miami-Dade Police Department said Tuesday the jewelry could not be tied to any reported thefts.

Martin had previously been suspended for excessive absences and tardiness and, at the time of his death, was serving a 10-day suspension after school officials found an empty plastic bag with marijuana traces in his backpack.



Quote:
Zimmerman’s attorney, Craig Sonner, has said in more than one interview that his client’s nose was broken during the fight with Martin.

The Orlando Sentinel, citing anonymous sources, has reported that Martin grabbed Zimmerman’s head and banged it several times against the sidewalk. A statement from Sanford police said the newspaper’s story was “consistent” with evidence turned over to prosecutors.

Sonner said the gash on the back of Zimmerman’s head probably was serious enough for stitches, but he waited too long for treatment so the wound was already healing.

Zimmerman said he began crying for help; Martin’s family thinks it was their son who was crying out. Witness accounts differ and 911 tapes in which the voices are heard are not clear.

Martin was at least 6 feet tall, several inches taller than the 5-foot-9 Zimmerman. Meza said Martin was not the child he appears to be in photos flashed across television and newspapers.

“George was in a fight for his life,” Meza said.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:05 am 
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As more comes out, then it is even more complex. If Zimmerman approached Trayvon and he did a pre-emptive strike because he felt threatened, does Zimmerman still have a SYG defense? Very tough. If I start a fight, then have to use deadly force, is that a self-defense?
As someone else said, the Grand Jury, and if it comes to it, a trial jury will have a difficult set of evidence.

And, how much does it matter how many times Zimmerman had called 911 in the past? And what does it matter if Trayvon had been in trouble before?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:50 am 
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RTCrudgi wrote:
wing2000 wrote:
What was "less-than-exemplary" in your opinion?

We have a local commentator & Radio Talk show host which I believe answers your question quite well.
Mark Davis March 28th article Re: Trayvon Martin

Assured wrote:
No wonder the local people are so angry. There is a problem, and maybe not just with this law.
The "local people" didn't escalate this issue to national attention.

I agree completely with Davis's article noted above.


I don't agree that this issue shouldn't be examined nationally.

Stand Your Ground is a creation of the American Legislative Exchange Council, after they were approached by the National Rifle Association. It has been recreated in cookie cutter fashion all over the country. So it's about time that somebody looked at it, and it SHOULD have been examined more closely by the legislators all over the country who voted for it. And I certainly expect that there will be a lot of red faces when people realize that such a widely influential bill was in essence a backroom deal. I don't like it, and we need to focus national attention on this law, at the very least. It should be a defense for murder charges in court, and not an immunity from those charges. That's potentially dangerous, even if it isn't always dangerous. People are deparaved, which is why Jesus had to die for us. What makes us think that we can handle a law that gives people immunity for "self-defense," after they kill their only witness?

Oh, and as far as the racial component is concerned, I consider that to be the potential direction that this law might take us, at least in certain areas of the country. But I don't want this to be a distraction from the law that might be used as the means for inflicting injury on minority communities, also (because it isn't just minorities who would be affected).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:42 pm 
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I need to learn to be more concise. :oops:

All of the above is just to say, that Stand Your Ground isn't a minority issue in any sense. Blood is the same color, regardless of the ethnicity of the person it once belonged to.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:52 pm 
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cow451 wrote:
As more comes out, then it is even more complex. If Zimmerman approached Trayvon and he did a pre-emptive strike because he felt threatened, does Zimmerman still have a SYG defense? Very tough. If I start a fight, then have to use deadly force, is that a self-defense?



There is nothing in the article that presents the idea that Zimmerman "did a pre-emptive strike" or "started a fight." While it was (in my opinion given my current understanding of events) unwise for Zimmerman to approach Trayvon, unless it can be shown that threatened Trayvon, the SYG defense should be upheld. If I were Zimmerman, I would not have approached Trayvon, but I would have stayed close enough to see what was happening because the police are often very slow to respond.

Additionally, if Zimmerman's account is accurate, he was hit from behind by Trayvon.


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