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Dan, you do know that the federal government is constantly fiddling with the CPI, don't you? All John Williams is doing in that chart is showing what the inflation numbers would look like if the government were continuing to calculate the CPI in the same way that it did in 1980. That's evident from the labeling on the chart. But if your questioning Williams' credibility, all I can say is I don't know anyone else who does. And I know that a number of very savvy economists, investment advisors, and money managers rely on his work.

I guess you don't buy food.

Rents have been going up for most people, so you're fortunate.

Everyone I know says their cost of living has gone up. And that has certainly been my experience. Of course most of my spending is for basic needs. I own my home, but I still have to buy utilities, insurance, food, fuel, healthcare, some clothing, repairs and maintenance. About the only things that haven't gotten more expensive are labor and technology. Technology has actually gotten somewhat cheaper, as it usually does, but I spend very little on that kind of thing. All the stuff I need has gotten more expensive.

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If you want the capital gains rate to go up, you have to want it to go up world wide. The idea that capital gains can be taxed at a higher rate in some countries than it is in other countries is no longer tenable. The global economy is here, ready or not.

Obama, whose views you often champion, has said plainly that he has no plans to raise the capital gains rate, and may even want to lower it.

If you have a payroll tax of 15%, and an income tax of 15% on what's left after that, the cascaded tax burden is really 27.75%. If you eliminate all the loopholes, that's enough money to keep the government going. That's on wages.

Capital gains are also subject to cascaded taxation. The corporations have to pay taxes on their gains. Then the owners have to pay capital gains on what's left.

Capital gains on homes might be an exception. But if you were to index on inflation, the capital gains on a home is just about zero over time, on the average over the long haul.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

Yep.



What's evident from the labeling is that he claims this to be true. What's not evident is how he came to those numbers, what those alleged changes were, or why he chose 1980 & 1990 in particular. Missing bits like that make me suspicious.



Really? It took me about 10 seconds on google to find people who do. I question the credibility of anybody with a website talking about shadow governments, but I didn't make specific challenges to his data, because I still haven't found what it's based on. If you know where to find it, I'd love to see it.


And I know that a number of very savvy economists, investment advisors, and money managers rely on his work.



I haven't looked at the numbers, but IME, rising food prices have been more of a function of geography than time. Food where my parents live is considerably cheaper than it is where I live, and I am continually resentful of people who live in CA and can buy 4 avocados for $1.

-Dan.

Why resentful? I can see envious, but I can't see this as grounds for resentment.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

They don't pay income taxes because they are too poor, and don't earn enough. But as Strider33 has heard me say the last time we discussed this (Hi Strider!) the people who don't pay INCOME taxes still pay consumption and excise taxes. Here in California, as you know, the sales tax is almost 10%, and poor people pay those and any number of excise taxes, particularly gasoline. So EVERYONE is a taxpayer and has "skin in the game." You might feel that people aren't worthy of being respected as "taxpayers" unless they pay INCOME tax, or you might have just forgotten about consumption taxes. Paul Ryan certainly hasn't - his last Ryan Plan included consumption taxes, and I don't expect him to disappoint me now. Grover Norquist didn't say anything about them, either, even though this kind of tax hits middle and lower income people the hardest. Nope - he just wants low rates. His silence upsets me.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

Don't be, Mr. Iluvatar. We have a sales tax here of almost 10%, as Gideon and I were just discussing. And no doubt your blueberries are cheaper than mine. Here, you'd probably have to switch to strawberries...

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

Thanks!

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

It's a different game. Income tax is a tax on production. Sales tax is a tax on consumption.

People who are in the 0% bracket for income taxes don't care how how they go, from a narrow personal perspective. I'm in the 0% bracket but I argue against raising the taxes on the top bracket not because I'm agitating for my own personal interest, but becaue I think it's what's right for the country.

As far as lowering the rate for sales taxes, yeah, I'd favor that, too. Here in Massachusetts, they raised the sales tax rate from 5% to 6.25% because of the current emergency. They promise to lower the rates back down as soon as the emergency is over.

But the emergency will never be over. There was a fiscal emergency back in 1917 due to World War I. They put in a "temporary" tax on telephone service to deal with that emergency. That tax is still in place.

Getting rid of taxes is tough, because it means you have to cut back spending.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

Massachussets certainly has more flexibility to cut tax revenue if they don't have a budgetary deficit the size of the Federal government's.

But I am arguing that the Federal government doesn't have the same flexibility to cut revenue. I think cutting revenue is irresponsible, but I also disagree with the specific cuts Paul Ryan has targeted - he went right for the jugular = Social Security and Medicare / Medicaid. To do that and then slash revenue from higher earners is unspeakable IMO. Furthermore, I do not anticpate that capital gains will be taxed at all, but I suppose we are still waiting to hear about that.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

Oh joy...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/house-approves-ryan-budget-plan-to-cut-spending-taxes/2012/03/29/gIQAdUXQjS_blog.html?wpisrc=al_politics_p

House approves Ryan budget plan to cut spending, taxes



No, fellas! Cut spending, raise taxes!

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

It may be a looooooong, hot summer.

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"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State;
Ronald Reagan

I hope we don't have another countdown to shutdown.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

I know a lot of people who pay no income taxes and very few are really poor. Most of them have decent shelter, transportation, and utilities; most have access to education and healthcare; they never go hungry; they seem to have more money to spend on entertainment than I do; and they have no lack of TVs, computers, cell phones, stereos, digital cameras, etc. In fact many of them regularly spend more than I do, discounting housing (because I own mine). But the fact that those in the lower income brackets pay no income taxes makes my point that a "progressive" tax code is alive and well in the US.

As Strider has pointed out, taxes on production and consumption are quite different. And any discussion of state and local taxes should be addressed separately. Some states, for example, have no sales tax. And some have no income tax. So state and local tax policies really need to be addressed by locality. And since the federal government has no voice in those policies, they really shouldn't enter into determinations of federal tax policies.

I'm not oblivious to the many federal excise taxes, but the reality is that most people are. They're called hidden taxes because consumers don't see them. They only see the retail price they ultimately pay and rarely do they ever give any consideration to the fact that the price may include hidden federal taxes even if they're vaguely aware that such taxes exist. I think hidden taxes should be illegal, but that's what we've got. Nevertheless, these are taxes that all consumers pay, not just those with lower incomes.

The problem with the fact that so many pay no income tax, coupled with a growing entitlement mentality, is that those people are increasingly willing to raise taxes on others to their benefit. It is a willingness that is based on envy, and the sin of envy is destructive. Envy is "rottenness to the bones" (Prov 14:30) and it leads to injustice (Matt 27:18; Ezek 35:11). God lumps envy together with such sins as sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, debauchery, slander, idolatry, and sorcery (Mark 7:21-22; Rom 1:29-31; Gal 5:19-21). And God warns that those who practice such things as envy will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:21).

Why is it that people who want others to pay more taxes don't want to pay more taxes themselves? If the country is in a bind and if it's for the good of the country, shouldn't we all be willing to tighten our belts and make some sacrifices? But people who only want others to pay more taxes will come up with all sorts of reasons (excuses) why they should not have to pay any more than they already do. In fact, they'll likely come up with reasons why they should pay less. Of course they'll cast themselves together with others so that they won't stand out too much and appear to be acting out of self-interest, but it always remains that they don't want to pay more themselves. And here's the proof: Anyone who wants to pay more to the government in order to solve our (you name it) problem, is free to do so. But these people never do it.

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Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

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When you love avocados as much as I do and have to pay 5-8x as much for them, you'll understand.

-Dan.

Iluvatar - LOL!

Now back to Gideon:



I can't comment directly on your question. Because I really don't think this issue is about that. What is actually happening is that the upper brackets have had a 30 point reduction in their rates, phased in over a 30 year period. Now Paul Ryan is REALLY serving up hefty cuts to the upper brackets, most particularly if he is going to be taking deductions away (people with high disposable income couldn't care less about losing deductions BTW). The implication of all of this, is that the rest of us will have to make up the difference for all of these cuts at the upper end. Indeed, this has already started, because I ALREADY pay 25% compared to billionaires paying 15%, and it isn't right. It doesn't have anything to do with wanting "other people" to pay more. I am the one who wants to STOP paying more. Obviously I am not the only one, either, because some people are paying as high as 35% to that same 15%. Paul Ryan appears ready to tilt the imbalance even farther, unilaterally, with NO DISCUSSION. That is the reason for this thread.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!