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Another thing....

Gideon you said

Maybe these girls/women felt like they had no choice. Yes I know that is wrong there is always a choice. However depending on the 'christian' (and I use the term loosely) environment these woman came from, the shame, being outcast, and in general the condemnation these girls/women would have to listen to from fellow 'christians' about getting pregnant in the first place probably made them feel like they had no other choice. Christianity is the only 'religion' that has a history of 'shooting their wounded'.

I have volunteered many hours of the years helping to counsel women who have had an abortion - Christian girls/women who were tossed under the bus when either A) the 'church family' found out they were pregnant, or B) called them murderers after the fact. There is no love, no forgiveness. It's none of the above Gideon, we fail to rescue those who are being unjustly led to slaughter because we have failed the recognize those in need, because we have failed to love them no matter where they were, because we failed to show grace and mercy, we have failed to provide help and guidance and acceptance.

Christians are so busy - after the fact - condemning both the unmarried pregnant girl (who may have been raped) as well as those who have had abortions that women/girls in this situation feel there is no other option. They believe - how can God ever love me, christians will call me a murderer, I'm worthless...

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Jennifer Dent
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For the record, the Virginia law that Governor McDonnell signed into law does not require a woman to view an ultrasound before aborting her child. It only requires that an ultrasound be done and that the woman be given the option of viewing it. And the law does not require that invasive trans-vaginal ultrasounds be performed; it only requires that trans-abdominal ultrasounds be performed.

As for what power the government should have in the issue of abortion, I believe the scriptures are clear that civil government's God-ordained role is to approve of what is good and to punish evil deeds (Rom 13:1-4). Governing authorities are God's servants to administer justice. And justice would be (a) to protect the lives of the innocent by prohibiting abortion and (b) to punish the taking of their lives. That is civil government's divine mandate. Therefore if government were to require women to view an ultrasound before having their children killed, such a requirement would fall well within government's divinely granted authority and far short of its divinely appointed role.

I agree completely that God has commanded us not only to show compassion and mercy to preborn children by defending them and rescuing them from execution, but also to show compassion and mercy to women and girls who have either had abortions or are faced with making an abortion decision. It is not a question of doing one or the other; we are to do both. And preventing abortions is one way of doing both. We save children's lives and we save women and girls from killing their own children—an act which haunts most women who go down that road and which can have long-term destructive effects in their lives.

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"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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Perhaps I should have said "do not directly affect us as individuals".

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Not all those who wander are lost.

My grown daughter is involved in a Christian ministry to women going through a crisis pregnancy. I'm not going to claim credit for what she does. But she is putting herself into it.

That ministry does have a section that deals with post abortion distress... which can last for decades! Often the advocates of simple and easy abortions don't talk much about this.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

So, one's liberty to not wear a seat belt is.....
Shall we speak of city smoking prohibitions? Or perhaps any of a various set of gun laws.

Well, I do feel differently because that is a different situation. First, Viagra is not something that will directly take another life. Next, I'm as against Viagra from the gov't hopper as I am BC. (But that is another topic.) I just find it curious that you ladies seem to keep bringing Viagra up.

Who is about to force someone else into the ash heap. I'm all for making abortion illegal once again and this little liberty would then be protected.

Why?
You seriously have not checked out some of the cults as well as some of our Islamic folk out there. This issue is more universal than you portray it perhaps because you live on the edge of the Bible belt in quite the Christianized "Metroplex burbs".

I'm sure that there are many out there who feel this way (Both Christian and non). I will say that the (may have been raped) sidebar is an emotional amp which turns this discussion onto a-whole-nother level. None of this argument (icluding the rape sidebar) makes aborting the child morally right nor does it argue in any rational form against a lady having to view the child before she agrees to have it removed from the living.

Further, Christians and those with a Biblical moral sense lost this battle in the courtroom I think because we were not ready for the non-sensical argument of "privacy" to hold water as it did in Roe. IMO a great deal of our social ills came right out of that Pandora's box. You are right that this battle need to be won in the hearts of the believers, then in the hearts of a majority of the people, but most of all it surely does need to be taken into and won in the various halls of legislation both state & federal.

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Blessings,
Randy
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Really quickly Randy as I'm in the middle of my final . .

viagra is a drug used by my to have sex....it's a sexual drug - sometimes used by men in order to have sex in order to reproduce children, why shouldn't men have to loop through hoops the way women do?

Now I've said this before and I will say it again, I personally believe that abortion is wrong and we should do what we can in order to slow and eventually stop it from happening in the first place. I personally believe that every woman SHOULD view and hear the baby before making that final decision.....

Having said that. . .it should be the decision of the doctor and the patient what needs to happen when discussing surgery of any kind.

This thread is NOT about the legality of abortion or even whether it is right or wrong - it is about the government's continual intrusion into the lives of of people. Whether or not a woman having an abortion choose to view or not view the ultrasound should be between her and her doctor.


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every single abortion clinic should have the following on site:

counselor's
access to information that cover's ALL their options (including access to adoption agencies, wic representatives and assistance with the baby)

patients should also be required to wait at least 7 days after the initial visit to think about it....
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all of these things I am sure would bring the rates of performed abortions down, and without more government interference into the lives of the citizens.

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Jennifer Dent
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I would suggest the "reproduction" group of this crowd is quite low.
I'm not sure that they don't but, I really don't care. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It's different. I'd say I'm against it being provided or mandated by the Gov't just the same as BC. I'd say one should see their doctor and have the necessary tests BEFORE taking any drug.

Requiring someone to view the ultrasound before the abortion does not impede the doctor/patient decision process nor does it intrude any more than requiring doctor to be certified to practice medicine. The doctor and patient would still be able to talk about what happens during the procedure and the decision would not be affected by the gov't but rather the viewing of the ultrasound may cause the woman to think clearly of what the result of her decision would be.

There are some areas that intrusion is inevitable and quite necessary. This is not an intrusion into any one's life but rather a requirement to see what one is about to remove from her body. At most, it causes the consult with the doctor to take a bit more time and gives the complete picture of what is being done.

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Blessings,
Randy
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Jennifer and Strider...well stated.

...and of course one Arizona State Rep wants to take it a step further....quote from a letter she wrote a constituent:

"Personally I'd like to make a law that mandates a woman watch an abortion being performed prior to having a "surgical procedure". If it's not a life it shouldn't matter, if it doesn't harm a woman then she shouldn't care, and don't we want more transparency and education in the medical profession anyway? We demand it everywhere else.

Until the dead child can tell me that she/he does not feel any pain - I have no intentions of clearing the conscience of the living - I will be voting YES."
Rep. Terri Proud, R-Tucson

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/P ... der/157762

That would certainly make a woman much better informed about the procedure before going ahead with it. IMO, most women would not choose to have an abortion after having watched one. I watched a filmed surgical abortion once myself. It caused me to weep. And it forever changed my perception of abortion.

_________________
"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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