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I can't speak for what motivates everyone, but I understand that as God's steward I represent him and his interests which include justice, righteousness, and mercy. With an issue like abortion, lives are being destroyed. Innocent lives. We look back on the Christian churches in Nazi Germany and say "Where were they? Why did so few stand up against the Nazi atrocities?" Likewise, we look back on the Christian churches in early American history and ask "Where were they? Why did so few stand up and oppose the evils of slavery in our land?" Future generations will look back on us in much the same way. They will ask why we did not love those who were being unjustly destroyed enough to fight for their lives and try to save them.

Surely we should try to change hearts, as you suggest. But changing hearts usually begins with changing minds. And whether or not we are successful in doing either, we have a duty to defend the innocent and to plead the case of the fatherless to win it. It is our duty because God says it is. If we fail to work toward those ends, we fail to obey God. We fail to be faithful servants. Ideally we would win over the hearts and minds of everyone and then we wouldn't even need laws concerning things like abortion. But, as the apostle Paul said, laws are for the lawless. Laws (righteous laws) restrain evil, and if we love others we should want to restrain evil.

Proverbs 24:11-12 11 Deliver those being taken away to death, and hold back those slipping to the slaughter. 12 If you say, “But we did not know about this,” does not the one who evaluates hearts consider? Does not the one who guards your life know? Will he not repay each person according to his deeds? Context (NET)

Jeremiah 5:28-29 28 That is how they have grown fat and sleek. There is no limit to the evil things they do. They do not plead the cause of the fatherless in such a way as to win it. They do not defend the rights of the poor. 29 I will certainly punish them for doing such things!” says the Lord. “I will certainly bring retribution on such a nation as this! Context (NET)

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I think those are very valid arguments. I had not thought of that but at the same time what of the injustices that might happene because while a candidate may oppose abortion he or she is against other life issues? What of the conservatives against abortion but for the death penalty? That's what I have trouble reconciling with. I also worry of having not onelife on my head but two. That's always my biggest issue even though spiritually, I know that the wages for sin are death.

As for assured, it makes sense that evangelicals would want to elect a president against abortion because while he does not change laws he does control who is appointed to the supreme court and those justices are the ones who could change roe v. Wade.

But President Obama was a Constitutional Law professor. He knows that he has another role to play, that will also protect the lives of the unborn, as well as those who are born - fully funding both subsidized birth control and Food Stamps. We Christians IMO should not be distracted by Roe v Wade to the point that we force short-sighted policies that will only increase the number of abortions. Defunding Planned Parenthood, and I want to be frank here, will only increase the number of abortions (because desperate women who have been foolish won't want their husbands to see the red-headed and freckled child they would otherwise give birth to). Harry Reid hates abortion and he knows this. You need birth control, and that will make it workable for the Supreme Court to finally make abortion illegal, because it will be the draconian and outmoded (not to mention evil) method that nobody needs anymore.

Gideon, you are right, we need to change hearts. Unsaved women are going to continue to cheat on their husbands. I don't know what we do about that, except make sure that they have birth control available so that they will not abort an unwanted child, either legally or illegally.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

Gideon -- well said -- thanks for reminding me where that verse was in Jeremiah

reebz -- there is indeed a ripple effect & a larger picture to consider

electing a Pres who won't put any more liberal judges on the Supreme Court is but 1 consideration

Reba, we have an open thread on the subject of capital punishment, if you'd like to explore that one further.

I'm sorry, Assured, but I don't think it's any more logical to conclude that defunding the nation's largest abortion provider would lead to more abortions than it was to argue that legalizing abortion on demand would result in fewer abortions. I hear pro-abortionists continue to defend the status quo, saying "abortion should be legal, safe, and rare" when the reality is that abortion is presently neither safe nor rare.

Thank you, Paco. And you're welcome.

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But if the Supreme Court makes abortion illegal, all they will be able to do is provide birth control and health screenings, which is already well over 95% of what they do now.

I was pro-choice before becoming a Christian, all the more so because I suspect that some members of my own family have had abortions. But I am now beginning to believe that once we make family planning education and birth control consistently available to low-income women, that we will set up the groundwork for finally making it illegal through the courts. That would be a good goal IMO.

See Gideon, we as Christians have an issue with the fact that abortion is legal in the first place. Our issue is not with Planned Parenthood, whose importance lies in the fact that they prevent women from needing abortions, for which they would have to pay hundreds of dollars out of their own pockets. An abortion where I live costs about $500, but birth control is distributed free to low-income women.

It goes without saying that I feel that the "personhood" stuff that would make the pill illegal, is too far to the right and would not solve the abortion problem. I don't want women going out to get illegal abortions once abortion is illegal, the way they used to! I want the unwanted child problem solved.

But we can agree to disagree - I just wanted to lay out an alternate view. God in His Providence will provide what He knows to be best. We need to continue to pray about this issue.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

Assured, I would encourage you to read What the Facts Reveal About PLANNED PARENTHOOD, a very informative article written by my good friend Royce Dunn, founder of the National Life Chain and founder and president of Please Let Me Live.

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Gideon, we both hate abortion. I hope I have at least made that clear.

I won't defend Planned Parenthood if they are doing something unethical (besides the abortions, which are a matter for the courts). But so far, God has allowed them to continue to receive funding. We don't know why. We will see what happens.

Maybe you should have your Congressman or woman read that book. Their opinion matters much more than my own, because they are the ones who vote for funding.

May God's will be done!

But what else were they talking about at that debate? Taxes, I think. What do you all think about Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan?

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

IMO, Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan is a step in the right direction. Phase 2 of his overall plan is to abolish the IRS and eliminate federal income taxes altogether. I could get behind that, though I doubt Congress will ever pass it so long as Democrats control the Senate. Taxing productivity makes no sense from an economics perspective, and the individual income tax allows for a degree of governmental intrusion into the private affairs of citizens that is really outrageous if you think about it. The income tax started out in 1861 as a 3% tax on incomes over $800 a time when the average family income was less than $400, and it has morphed into a monstrous law which is incomprehensible to the average person and which is enforced by a bureaucratic agency with tyrannical power over the people. The IRS has the power to destroy the lives and livelihoods of law abiding citizens, which is something we should not permit. I definitely agree that the IRS and the income tax should be abolished. Cain's 9-9-9 plan has merit on its own, but I think it's even more attractive as part one of his two-stage plan.

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OK - I have a question for you, Gideon. Who was your favorite past Republican President, and why? Did that President raise or lower taxes during his term? I ask this because we now have a deficit, and Cain's plan is projected to generate several hundreds of billions of dollars less in revenue than currently. Here is a link with that info (from my local paper, the Los Angeles Times): http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/12/news/la-pn-999-plan-20111012

You want us to be able to pay China back, right? How do we deal with our deficit?

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!

I think the debate can be filed in archives and this post having run the course IMO. Let us pray for an honest individual to step up and take this country to the Promised Land, however hard it will be. The problem with politics as usual, is politics.

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Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Excellent evaluation...could not have described it better. I think Anderson Cooper let it go on to show how ridiculous these candidates really are...it gives him fuel for why democrats are better...to which I say HA! NOT!~

The schoolboys, the schoolboys playground drama. Romney thinks he has to answer all of Perry's challenges. And so now what is next? Clearly Ron Paul has not a clue as to what is real. Bachman "Anderson, Anderson, Anderson,..." blah. Perry can't form a complete sentence. not one of them answered the questions and Anderson let them get away with it. Santorum is a little squeamish in his answers and is defensive.

ahhhh and so it goes...we have how much time before we elect a new Pres?

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SonShine <)))<>
Psalm 48:1 "Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised" Jeremiah 2:2b The LORD said: "I remember you"

One way is to abolish the Federal Reserve, which is the creator of most of our debt.

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Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell

That would create interest free money as well as put the power to coin monies and determine their value back into the hands of Congress, where it belongs.

Sorry about the successive posts. Couldn't edit my previous post to add this.

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Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell

I agree with you that they didn't answer the questions. I am a former Republican so am not "hoping" that the Republicans look bad, but I have become tired of their "deficits don't matter" attitude. This business of cutting tax rates, and therefore revenue, s me when we have a deficit.

But simultaneously increasing rates on the poor and middle class (my taxes would go up because I already pay a state sales tax) in order to pay for a huge tax cut for the upper end is beyond the pale. Any way you slice it, 9-9-9 is the Ryan Plan on steroids, because it will also end Social Security (Paul Ryan wants to privatize Medicare) - it ends the payroll tax, which was the mechanism for funding it.

I would have been able to respect a well-thought out and workable plan for deficit reduction. I would have put the Tea Party into the "conscientious objector" category. But this movement has been taken over by wealthy individuals who don't really care about reducing the deficit. They want to lower tax rates at the upper end, and they will only support candidates who will engineer this for them. It truly s me.

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Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine

Oh what a foretaste of glory divine!