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How do we really know who's growing? In many groups, if one person leaves and another person comes, they claim they now have two.

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Marv
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This is something I've been saying here for some time now. I know others have disagreed with me, but all of the research points to more and more megachurches, but fewer overall people attending them.

I do disagree with him that it is secularism that is challenging the church, and that conservatism is dying. Two denominations that are growing overall - Roman Catholic and Orthodox - are socially very conservative. The Roman Catholic Church especially is a staunch supporter of pro-life issues.

I agree that consumer-driven church organization is doomed to fail. We cannot (and should not) compete with secular marketing schemes that are driven by numbers, not theology. I think people are growing tired of churches that copy so much of the vernacular and culture of corporate America (campuses, "executive senior" pastor, education director, facilities manager, church shopping, communication media, etc.), and copy so much of secular culture that you cannot tell a church service from American Idol.

I have also been criticized for not providing answers to the problems, but I think it is important that people realize that there even is a problem before we can move on to how we can fix it.

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

I don't agree with Serendipity's post.

For every Swaggert, Jim & Tammy Baker, etc. there are a whole host of non-famous or semi-popular ministers who are dedicated and trustworthy. Billy Graham, Chuck Colson, Paige Patterson, W.A. Criswell, & R.C.Sproul, to name just a few of the semi-famous or famous.



BTW what did Falwell do to be mentioned in the ranks of Swaggert and the Bakers?

As for Ted Haggard, I've enjoyed a couple of his books. Don't know the man and hope his fall from "social grace" has not too terribly hurt his relationship with God. Even David had a great moral failure or two and still was a man after God's own heart. I think it prudent for those of us not close to any particular situation to reserve judgment IAW Romans 14:4.

Blessings,
Randy

I don't know when it will happen but surely it will happen.

It's one of those problems of being trained to be a consumer. It's called fashion. People have, since their earliest days been trained that to be successful is to trade cars, to change clothes, to go to different restaurants, to have the latest electronic gadget. And though it's never really stated, they treat church the same way. Shopping for the latest fashion.

The only thing one knows about fashion is, it changes. Sometimes it has to be something new, sometimes something old.

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Marv
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Interesting article...even if it was written by a self-acclaimed "postevangelical reformation Christian in search of a Jesus-shaped spirituality" (which means at least he's upfront with where he's coming from by stating that he considers himself to already be "postevangelical"). Thought provoking at least (even if I disagree with some of his conclusions, I by-and-large agree).

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CNN reports more people are calling themselves evangelicals:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflif ... newssearch
even as fewer US residents call themselves Christians (but it is still the vast majority).

I agree with much of what S writes, as usual.
I remember Bakker, Swaggart, and Falwell. I think they are very different from each other.
Falwell was more political active than I think is appropriate, trying to get morality legislated, but he also was a dedicated local pastor who never gave the appearance (to me) of being consumed with his own riches and pride.
The others mentioned I did not feel as good about, to be polite.

I think the prophecy of evangelical collapse in the CSM is a false prophecy, but I am hopeful that the evangelical will become more accepting of the uncertainty and lack of proof that exists in some of the doctrines that they consider to be core doctrines but that really belong in the "could be, we don't know, and it doesn't matter" category.

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I misspelled it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_PTL_Club

Young folks don't remember how popular the Bakkers, Swaggart, and Falwell were.
The latest top evangelical to fall is now on the oprah talk show circuit. I can't recall his name but he was # 1 in this region. New Life Mega Church.... (where they had the shootout).
S

Ted Haggard I think.

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
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David,
Interesting. I tend to agree that the post 70's political forays have, and will, continue to backlash.... I've only started on your links. Thanks.

I still remember a period in American history where Jim and Tammy-Faye Baker (PTL Club) were the hottest property ever marketed in middle America. Outside of their devout fan base, they were laughing stocks. I don't see it getting a whole lot worse.

You would never know it by popular "News" but most people are not gay, jews, or radical atheists. But I can't forecast the future. The economy will probably have a lot to do with the future.

Just some preliminary thoughts. Back to reading!
S

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

I found myself agreeing the Michael Spencer conclusion as he writes an interesting article but for somewhat different reasons.
I also agree that the current move in the western church on bigger buildings and bigger programs distracts from the commands of Christ for each of us to love GOD and to love one-another and to be the salt of the earth. We are to build meaningful caring relationships with one-another.
His article is titled
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html
He says:
We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
see also his articles at http://www.internetmonk.com/ where he writes:
The CSM piece was on the commentary page. It is commentary, not news or research. 2) I did not say that evangelicalism is dying. I said it is going to decline quickly to a smaller, more chastened, more diverse, less influential form.

For all my new readers, here are the original, longer and more detailed “Coming Evangelical Collapse” posts.
The Coming Evangelical Collapse: Part 1
The Coming Evangelical Collapse: Part 2
The Coming Evangelical Collapse: Part 3
Couple of notes on the original posts that may clear up some commenter feedback: Continue Reading»

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