The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

It has for some years been my conviction that God not only would judge the USA, but had already begun to do so in a mercifully measured fashion that would intensify if America did not repent. And America has not repented. The United States does not stand alone in this regard, but is of particular concern for me because I and most of the people I know live there. David Wilkerson, whom the Lord called home last year at the age of 79, wrote 40 years ago about a vision the Lord had given him concerning America's increasing wickedness, a call to repentance, and a warning of coming judgment. Throughout his remaining years of faithful service, Wilkerson affirmed the message of warning that I believe God gave him, and many of the things he foresaw have already come to pass. But a significant, and as yet unfulfilled, element of the vision he wrote about is one of sudden and devastating economic judgment. And as I watch events unfold in our nation and around the world, it appears the stage for such judgment is being set. Those who study such things know that the U.S. dollar's status as the de facto global reserve currency has conferred tremendous economic benefits upon the nation, yet we can now see that status rapidly coming undone. It's but one strand in the financial/economic crises facing the nation, but it's a critical one.

_________________
"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The NET Bible Study Environment
Pastors Pro-Life Resource Center
Biblical Eldership

I went and read the entire article you posted. It is clear that we are on a downhill slide for sure. Will we be ready? Are we ready not just monetarily but more importantly spiritually.
Dave Wilkerson was right on in so many areas and I had been getting his newsletters ...scary but timely and accurate. I miss his preaching! I miss his teaching! Seems like God is taking them home one by one ...the dearth of good Bible teachers is being felt more and more and more.

Thanks for this post

_________________
SonShine <)))<>
Psalm 48:1 "Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised" Jeremiah 2:2b The LORD said: "I remember you"

Yes, I also believe that the United States will be judged by God for the wickedness of our nation. However, the only thing, in my opinion, that keeps us from total judgment is that we support the nation Israel. When our nation turns its back on Israel and the Jewish people we will incur the wrath of God.

I totally agree 100% and if our gov't does not get its act in place that will happen sooner than later.
Today there was an article in Charisma magazine that they are predicting Israel will bomb Iran...if that happens all "hell" will let loose!
scary

_________________
SonShine <)))<>
Psalm 48:1 "Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised" Jeremiah 2:2b The LORD said: "I remember you"

Every day I read or hear about things that make me say, "it's time", and "it's a sign of the times".

I think postmodernism is a bedding ground for the rise of antichrist. I think there is an anti Christian spirit about the culture. When this postmodern culture is the majority of our nation's government, the name of God will be blotted out of our nation, absolute truth will be denied, they will become increasingly tyrannical, and it will be near impossible to serve the Lord and still survive.

And I think we have a choice as a Nation; we can be like a Promised Land, following the Lord, or we can be like a Babylon, that does not know the Lord.

Part of the reason we are getting poorer is the lack of capital formation. I don't mean the lack of tokens of capital wealth. I mean the lack of capital itself.

But the biggest problem is not material poverty. It's spiritual paverty.

_________________
Not all those who wander are lost.

If this is what David Wilkerson was talking about, he's no more a prophet than Fareed Zakaria, who wrote an entire book about this very topic - as he calls is, "The Rise of the Rest" (vs "the Rise of the West"). This is not judgment; it's the inevitable (and widely predicted) result of other nations lifting themselves out of poverty.

Ironically, this is also the reason that conservative political tendencies towards bullying other nations into submission will be less and less effective in the future: other nations will be less reliant upon us and we'll have less leverage over them. We'll have to shift to a more diplomatic approach to getting our way.

-Dan.

God judged his chosen people - the Children of Israel. Inferring that the United States (or any other of the 200 plus countries in the world) are subject to the same judgement is, IMO, bad theology.

Jesus came to save all people (regardless of national creed or origin). He called us to live as His example on earth. On that alone we will be judged.

I found this in researching this about Roman empire ..And from the looks of things around us we are ignoring the lessons from which the Romans learned to late..


"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not traitor, he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared." - Cicero, 42 B.C.

If I'm not mistaken, The Rise of "The Rest" was written by Alice Amsden in 2003. Maybe you were thinking of Zakaria's The Post-American World, written in 2009. And of course a number of similar books have come out in the last dozen or so years. In contrast, David Wilkerson wrote The Vision 40 years ago. Wilkerson was a pastor who never claimed to be a prophet. In fact, he categorically denied that he was one. But one does not have to be a prophet to receive divine revelation (cf. 1 Corinthians 12 and 14) and Wilkerson's life as a man of God was exemplary. Also, there is no reason to assume that logical consequences and divine judgment are mutually exclusive.

It's clear from even a cursory reading of the Bible that God judges nations (plural). Just some of the examples in Scripture are the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Psalm 96:10-13 10 Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns! The world is established, it cannot be moved. He judges the nations fairly.” 11 Let the sky rejoice, and the earth be happy! Let the sea and everything in it shout! 12 Let the fields and everything in them celebrate! Then let the trees of the forest shout with joy 13 before the Lord, for he comes! For he comes to judge the earth! He judges the world fairly, and the nations in accordance with his justice. Context (NET)

I think you are conflating earthly judgment with eternal judgment. Even Romans 13 makes it clear that earthly rulers are instruments of God's judgment. And John's Revelation is full of divine judgments in this world that precede eternal judgment.

_________________
"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The NET Bible Study Environment
Pastors Pro-Life Resource Center
Biblical Eldership

Yes, thank you, my mistake. "Rise of the rest" is merely the slogan that Zakaria likes to repeat ad nauseum in the book and practically everywhere else he can.



What's the difference between having a prophecying about the future and relaying the details of a divinely-inspired vision of it? AFAIK, that's the definition of prophecy. However he may have chosen to label himself, he's, at best, splitting hairs.

Frankly, there's nothing in this vision (there are 4 parts, I've only made it through the first 2 so far) that convinces me of anything other than the fact that vague claims can be manipulated to fit practically any situation be they delivered in the form of visions, prophesies, horoscopes, or carnival mind readings.

Several of his prophecies are little more than the paranoias that were popular back in the day, such as a one-world-church run by the Pope and nude dancing, seyances and other occult practices becoming accepted practices in church. And at least according to wikipedia, his predicted persecution against charismatic catholics never materialized.

-Dan.

The so-called Prophecies have been around for at least the forty years I've been a Christian. Wilkerson, Lindsey, et al, have no special insight. many of their specific predictions have been way off (Wilkerson admitted such in his later years).

To predict the nation and the world are going to Sheol in a handbasket is not prophetic.

_________________
"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State;
Ronald Reagan

You've misread me, Dan. Any believer may receive divine revelation, including prophecy (even if he or she does not have a "gift" of prophecy, etc.), but that does not necessarily make the person a "prophet." While "all" may prophesy (1 Cor 14:5), Christ has given prophets (along with apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers) specifically to equip the saints for ministry (Eph 4:11-14). To prophesy speaks of an act, perhaps even a repeated act, in which all believers may engage, but to be a prophet speaks of an ongoing leadership ministry to the church. Wilkerson didn't deny that his vision was prophetic; he only denied that he stood in the office of a prophet. And perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that he acknowledged he was not a prophet, for to serve in that role would be an honor.

I'm not here to defend the genuineness of the vision that David Wilkerson said the Lord gave him. I believe it was genuine even though some of what he saw has not yet come to pass. Others are free to think of it as they wish. And others may not see the hand of God at work in the world, as I do. I've shared my own perception and prayerful conviction, and others are free to consider it or dismiss it as they choose.

_________________
"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The NET Bible Study Environment
Pastors Pro-Life Resource Center
Biblical Eldership

Gideon,

I think it's important to point out that prophecy is essentially about speaking the truth.
It's not always about predicting the future. To be sure, there is scripture that says that one way to test a presumed prophet is to see whether his predictions come to pass. And prediction that goes beyond anything that we expect natural forecasting to be able to do is a strong indicator that something supernatural is going on.

But prophets sometimes speak the truth about the present. For example, John the Baptist was speaking prophecy when he said that Herod's marriage was unlawful.

_________________
Not all those who wander are lost.

& therein lies a big reason while our country will panic -- of course, if we'd live within our means TODAY, we could better absorb the shock of the USD being replaced as the world's currency

you may want to peruse the Bible some more -- God Judged far more than just Israel in the OT -- Zech. 14 & Rev. 6-19 are examples of future Judgement

there is Judgement regarding individual salvation, too, but it is not the only thing in the mix

Gideon already made the above 2 pts so i'm agreeing with him