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I'm planning on doing some responses to a JW who is attempting to defend their view in light of the John 12:41, Isaiah 6:1 parallel (or lack thereof, in his view). Thus, I was wondering if I could get some feedback. Here is his full response:

From "God and Christ: examining a biblical doctrine" p. 114-117

Link removed for review.

From what I can gather, his response is centered around "because." (in John 12:41) Hence, the argument must follow that Isaiah said what he said (whether its from ch. 53 or 6) because he "saw His glory" and thus "spoke about him."

So his main argument is this: John 12:41 isn't a reference to Isaiah 6:1, but rather from Isaiah 53, since nowhere in Isaiah 6 does Isaiah "speak about him" because "he saw his glory." If you read the cited portion, you'll get a better idea as to why this JW argues in this way.

Any feedback would be most helpful!

Without seeing the article refered to it is difficult to respond to the argument. As far as I can see, though, Isaiah 53 is a reference to Jesus - and an important one at that. It focuses on the REASON for his death. If I were discussing this I believe I would ignore the argument over which passage John 12 refers to and talk about either Isaiah passage. If your JW friend wants to talk about Isaiah 53 then focus on Jesus' death. In my experience, JW people will agree that Jesus died for us, but then they turn around and treat it more as an example of selflessness for us to follow and promote salvation by works. I would challenge him to see that Jesus died IN OUR PLACE and go from there.

As far as arguing the diety of Christ, I have a passage in Revelation that I go to in the JW's own Bible. I begin by asking if it is ever acceptable to worship anyone other than God. The JW usually agrees that only God deserves worship. I point out that, if Jesus is not God, then worship of him is blasphemy. Again, a JW will usually agree. I then ask them to read Revelation 5:11-14. In this passage we have two people worshiped. There is "The one who sits upon the throne" and "The Lamb" - especially in verse 13. Both are worshiped equally and without condemnation by the host of heaven. This is acceptable to the one on the throne, though it would be blasphemy if Jesus were not truly God.

Hope this helps. Oh, one more thing. I have learned to take the words of 1 Peter 15-16 seriously and to give my reasons for my hope with "gentleness and respect." I love to win arguments, but I have never debated someone into salvation. I have gone for the throat, so to speak, in debating and have had my conversations cut very short. Instead, plant the word and pray that it takes root. The only JWs I have personally known who became Christians did so becasue they studied the Bible so diligently that they found their church to be wrong. No person argued, they just read the word. Again, I hope this helps.

Thank you for your reply. I apologize for the link being taken down, so let me restate what was said in the link and perhaps you and others could respond to it:

The standard Trinitarian defense sees John 12:41 as referencing Isaiah 6. If this is the case, then Isaiah saw Jesus' glory, which would make Jesus YHWH. The parallels in the LXX are very clear with the "seeing" and "glory" in John 12:41. However, some see other reasons for rejecting this view in spite of the parallels.

The objection would go as follows:

1. Because John said, "These things Isaiah said because he saw his glory and he spoke of Him," we must decide what "these things Isaiah said" is referring to. There are two quotes in question. One is from Isaiah 53:1 and the other from Isaiah 6:10. Thus, "these things" must be in reference to either one of these texts, or both.

2. The question becomes, did Isaiah say what he said in 53:1 and/or 6:10 because he saw his glory? The objector would say that, although YHWH's glory was seen in 6:1-3, this isn't what prompted the statement in 6:10. Rather, what prompted the statement in 6:10 was based on the fact that Isaiah was told to say it. Thus, because the statement in 6:10 wasn't said as a result of "seeing His glory", the parallel between John 12:41 and Isaiah 6:1 is non-existent.

3. In Isaiah chapter 52:13-15, he had just finished speaking about the exalted Messiah. This prompted the question in 53:1, "to whom has the arm of YHWH been revealed?" Thus, the connection is that Isaiah said what he said in 53:1 because he had just "spoken about him" and had "seen his glory."

So the question is this: is John 12:41 making the connection of "seeing his glory and speaking of him" to Isaiah 53:1 to the exclusion of Isaiah 6?

I have read through the argument several times and looked at the passages in John and Isaiah. I have to say that I can see the argument going either way or, perhaps, being a combination of the two. On the one hand, it was seeing God's glory that caused Isaiah to proclaim all of his messages in the first place. On the other hand, the argument in John seems to be this: Prominent Jewish leaders did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. This is not a surprise as Isaiah declared that people would not beleive the report about the Messiah. In fact, the unbelief of the people is all the more evidence that he IS the messiah because Isaiah had already said God would harden their hearts. Why did Isaiah recognize the messiah when the people didn't? Because he saw the glory of the messiah rather than just his suffering. This sounds very much like Isaiah 53 to me.

In any case, using this parallell to support the diety of Jesus seems very thin to me. Ultimately, the JW argument does not say that Jesus was NOT God, simply that this passage doesn't teach it. If it was me, I would concede this one and move on to other arguments in support of Jesus' diety. John 1 is great as is Thomas' profession in John 20:28 of Jesus as "My Lord and My God." I realize that both may take some explanation of Greek grammar, but these and other passages seem much stronger arguments of Jesus' diety than John 12:41. That is just what I would do though.

If they are sincere, they will like this verse....

Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily".