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Stider33 - I see your point and it seems to be right however I do not see the evolution of the roles of men and women a problem. God has given us freedom to expand the roles that we have been given as male and female. In addition, Jesus, as a rabbi had several women around him as disciples which was totally unheard of in that day. In addition, the first people at the tomb and announcing the resurrection were women.

In addition, in early American history and the history of the Wild West, we see strong women. There are accounts of them hunting, fighting enemies and doing other chores.

When we raised our girls, one a first lieutenant in the U.S. Army, and the other to be enlisted in July, we told them that there is no such thing as girl stuff or guy stuff there is just stuff period so we exposed them to many things for their education.

GaryM,

You make a great point about women in the Bible, especially at the resurrection.

I've been noticing mention of women in Paul's epistles, for example in 2 Timothy 4. Although it doesn't say what their role was in their local church, they were surely important enough to mention.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

Howdy,

Will just mention a couple of things here. (observation)

Salvation Army.
There are several churches that have Female Preachers in abundance. One is the Salvation Army. What I have observed there is - - there tends then to be an abundance of females attending - - and a dearth of males that wish to stick around. This COULD be just because of the clients there - - or it could be because of the female divorcee bitterness - that can seem to pervade the atmosphere at times - - - but - - this DOES happen. Go attend one near you, and see what I mean.

Baptist Church.
I know of one country Baptist Church, that has a woman pastor. I have attended there several times - - and - - I had not really noticed, until now - - but - - there are several Divorcee ladies there - - with fairly large groups of kids... but NO single men. I had not noticed that before. Lots of families - - with men as the leaders of Adult Sunday School, and in other positions... but - - ... ... ... the men are quite scarce there. I had not previously noticed this, as I said.

.. Do not know that this establishes any rules of behavior, but... ... it is an observation that needs to be brought into this conversation.

Deborah - was a Prophet - - and she therefore Preached/Talked to other Jews - - who accepted her. Preachers tend to talk both to Christians, and NON-Christians. While the Christians may accept a woman preacher - - I am not certain that the NON-Christian folks, will be quite so forgiving...???

Bert

Gary, which women were recognized in the Gospels as Jesus' disciples?

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Good point Gideon - I miss wrote when I said several women were his disciples. There were women that followed him but not as disciples. I should have wrote that He kept company with women as opposed to rabbis who only associated with men.

Ok, I dug up this topic again...

So what do I say to this image (which juxtaposes 1 Timothy 2:11-15 against the Koran): https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

With this text: "Celebrate International Women's Day -- by working to end sexist oppression of women. Is there sexism without religion? Yes, but religion offers an organized tradition which asserts that sexism is grounded in morality. Hint: it sure as hell isn't! -- Sean Faircloth, Dir. of Strategy & Policy
Help us organize for a secular world: Link to Dawkins site removed.

Is it worth trying to witness to someone that spouts this? How about when they feed it to others that they are influencing, should I try to stop their influence? How do I defend my position... all I can say is, yes, it is hard to be submissive... pride is a hard thing to get under control for anyone....

ristenk,

If you are going to do battle with followers of Richard Dawkins, I'll keep you in my prayers, but that's about all the involvement I'm game for.

If I can summarize that world outlook, it's something like this. Faith is irrational. Irrationality is enough to discredit faith, without further argument. If you bring a book (or a collection of 66 books) in as evidence, we are simply going to find places where your books contradict themselves, or common sense, or the findings of science, and move on from there. I'm sure I'm not doing justice to that train of thought, but it's the best I can muster.

Here's my advice, for what it's worth. Don't defend the Bible. Let the Bible defend itself. There are people who are going to reject the truth that it contains, and are on the road to hell. You can't save anyone without God's direct intervention in that person's life.

Be a witness, not a lawyer. This may mean in certain circumstances that you have to focus on what coming to Christ has meant in your life, and not on what each passage in the Bible means. Don't carry this so far that you fail to point seekers at the Bible, however.

As far as the Quran goes, that is a whole different topic. I have heard conflicting descriptions of Islam on the subject of whether or not a woman has a soul.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

Thanks Strider... I didn't realize Dawkins was a big leader in this (kind sounds like Darwin, haha). I used to be in the Peace Corps and that is my association with a lot of the people that buy into his stuff. It's sad because Peace Corps volunteers have huge hearts for humanity but just deny the God part of it. They love nature and science and just can't get their heads around there being a creator behind all of it. Err, the devil sure is good at spinning stuff.

Ristenk - I agree with Strider33. For dealing with people like Dawkins and others one needs to have down some good apologetic arguments for their position. There are some who do not believe that there are any absolute truths let alone biblical truth.

There some of our beliefs which may be considered intolerant such as Jesus is the only way to God, marriage is between one man and one woman, a doctrinal position (some say doctrine divides), witnessing (it assumes one faith position is incorrect), and other doctrines which we hold as being biblical. Despite the relativism of the day, we must stand on the Bible as the word of God and be ready to take a stand for biblical truth.

1 Cor 15:1 "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand." NIV

1 Cor 15:58 "Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain." NIV

Here's my take:

Dawkins is an ultrarationalist, and not a postmodern. That is, he doesn't deny the existence of objective reality, but he denies that scripture has an adequate handle on objective reality.

1 Cor 1:18 18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. Context (NET)

This might apply here.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

I was in the Peace Corps a long, long time ago. I wasn't a Christian at the time.

Why do you associate Peace Corps with Dawkins? Just curious.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

ristenk -- some good pts by strider here -- you need not win a debate, merely present God's Word & your testimony & let God do the rest -- when you can get a handle on this, it'll free you

& pray while speaking with these people

this world sux but it's a temporary gig so keep that part in the back of your mind

for me, witnessing to some groups is HARD (e.g., homosexuals that are exceedingly effeminate) -- but i was just as much a sinner as them before God Called me to Him -- & just to clarify, i'm not some witnessing machine ova here, jus sayin' what i go thru @ times

Thanks Strider, Gary and Paco

Strider - I defintetly don't think all PC people are not godly... I certainly do not know all of them. The ones I served with and that I keep in touch with are atheists though.

Paco - I'm trying to get a grasp on the witnessing thing... some people find it very offensive that I tell my testimony although since it's my own story they cannot really argue with me; but I suspect they are angry that I present my case and my finding solice in Jesus Christ (even with an explanation as to why) because it insinuates that my way is the only way... well, it does sound arrogant, but it is what we believe.

I asked a christian coworker of mine if he ever witnesses. He is usually open with me but seemed a little offended that I asked such a personal question (who knows, maybe he is just goign through some hard things right now and didn't feel like opening up to me about it). Anyway, he said, "I'm not very big on sharing my faith unless I feel like the person I'm talking to is really interested, I feel like I need a personal relationship with them to do that." I understand that it helps to have a relationship with a person before sharing with them... but in my experience, most people are quite comfortable doing what they are doing and will never ask you about your faith unless they go through some terrible times... isn't it our responsibility to reach out to them, and not just wait around hoping that they'll reach out to us?

Puh-leeze don't refer to Peace Corps people as "PC people"! That sounds like "Politically Correct"! I can't stand political correctness, even when I'm inclined to agree!
The right acromyn for people such as me is RPCV.
Some people object to witnessing in the belief that all faith is personal and subjective. Some are merely offended as a cover for their own militant atheism. You have to discern each case for yourself.

You do have to "earn the right" to present the gospel truth to a person, and some people are going to be challenged to the core by that truth.


I can see both your point of view and your coworker's.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

i tried answering this earlier but the board crashed -- good thing i had a copy!

that was my initial reaction too

oh well <shrug> -- Jesus Offended many simply by Telling them He was God, Performing miracles, etc -- did that response stop Him? -- He's our Example on how to witness, not Dr. Phil or some kindler, gentler type

the Truth hurts -- when you tell someone THEIR means of salvation (usually some works-based trip) is filthy rags, it'll offend -- but it'll also cause people to stop & listen too -- your job isn't to guess which is which but to witness

people are generally self-righteous -- they know they're not perfect but have rationalized they're better than the do nothing neighbor across the street, liberals, (fill in the blank), so will merit heaven or whatever lies ahead -- it's 1 reason why soap operas thrive & folks try to tear others down -- if i'm better than you, i'll get in & you won't

we need to quit basing our conclusions on how we see things & see how God Views it

this is NOT a personal Q between Christians -- please -- he was offended because he felt guilty @ his lack of witnessing imo

YES -- your friend's response was a cop out -- i know because i've used it many times myself -- it's my preferred way of witnessing but it denies God's Power so i need to be more outspoken -- i do look/pray for opportunities & throw little hooks of bait out to see if anyone nibbles

ditto but i think the co-worker was making excuses for his lack of fruit -- i could be wrong but why else would he become offended?

how so? -- are you referring to not being hypocritical? -- one's life is a witness so there's that but any Christian has "earned" the right via God's Grace to witness