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think big part of this is that we ares till in the flesh, not yet arrived, so still limited in how we see things!

Also, all depends on IF one comes to the bible to prove our theology, or if our theology must ascribe to the bible, if it disagrees with it, will we be able to change it per the Bible?

Also, unless we agree that it ALONE is ONLY infallible source of info from/abouit God, how can we agree on what it teaches us?

Did you mean "the truth"?

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"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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Yes.

I'm much better at proofreading something I didn't write!

Lemme pick that mote out of your eye...

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Not all those who wander are lost.

Haha! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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I think the first question you need to ask, "Who Is Jesus, and who is God?"

Simple logic is all that is required. Jesus said the following;

Jesus said, "Do not pry to me, but to my father who has sent me.”
Jesus said, “The father is greater than I.”
Jesus prayed to his father…if Jesus was God, why would he pray to himself?
When Jesus was dying, he said, “Father, why have you forsaken me?” If Jesus and God were the same person, would he not have said, “Self, why have you forsaken yourself?”

I know the Bible says, (Jesus speaking) “The father and I are one.” That is a true statement…they are one. 3,000 people were baptized in one day. Jesus said…”Father, let these be one with me, as I am one with you.” Could we argue that there are now 3,001 who are Jesus? or that they were of the same heart, and mind.
There is another scripture which reads, “No man has ever seen God. If Jesus is God, than man would have seen him.

Jesus is called, “The first born of all creation.” If Jesus is God, than something else created him?

There is to much that shows Jesus, and Yahweh, (the Hebrew name for God in the Scrolls) are not the same person.

Fair enough questions. Before going into specific verses, I think we should start with your initial question, "Who is Jesus, and who is God?"


If you were a Jewish man living in Jerusalem in say 50 A.D., how would you answer that question?

If you were a gentile living in Rome in the year 50 A.D., how would you answer that question?


Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

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"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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That would depend. I could have been Roman, from the tribe of Juda, or from one of the other ten tribes. My post was not a question...it was a statment. Those who lived in the year 50 C.E, (common Era=A.D.) would not know a tenth of what we know today.

Since we do not live in the year 50C.E., Please, respond to the Bible facts stated?

Who is Jesus?
He is God incarnate, that is, God appearing amongst us as a man. He is Lord of all, the king over all of His creation.
Who is God?
If you want to know who God is, what He is like, look at Jesus who is and was the exact representation of the Father.

Much more is needed than "simple logic" to arrive at an understanding of the divinity AND humanity of Christ than can be deduced from stringing any number of isolated bible verses together, ignoring their immediate and wider biblical context.

When ones looks at the gospel accounts of the life of Jesus, we see Him doing and saying things that exactly indicate that He is God, the promised Messiah, who has now come to rescue and save His people and set up the Kingdom of God on earth. His life shows what it looks like when God is here amongst us, because He is God. His resurrection, as the "first born" of the new creation vindicates (proves) that He is indeed the Lord of all, and that even death has been defeated ... that's "simple" logic.


Could I add, that belief in the deity of Jesus is ASSUMED on this Forum. Denial of such is seen to be heretical. While discussion is welcome, if anyone wishes to maintain otherwise, they must do so in the Contra Forum, which is a restricted section of these boards.

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“Lord, in my zeal for love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love.” - Thomas Aquinas
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The first answer would be a blasphemer. The second would be a lunatic. Both questions take the slant of someone who does not desire to know who Jesus is, since no question was asked of a believer.

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"I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had no where else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for the day." ~Abraham Lincoln

We know that the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was very God, and Very man, that he was the second person of the trinity who physically became a man and lived among us!

Suppose you are a Jew living in Jerusalem in 50 A.D. and just heard a sermon preached by its bishop, James, about Jesus and God. Someone standing next to you turns to you and asks you, "Who is Jesus, and who is God?" What answer do you suppose would be given?

Suppose you are a pagan living in Rome in around the same year. You are educated in the works of the poets, particularly Hesiod. You have heard the preaching of men from Jerusalem such as Peter and Mark. You were even invited to a strange ceremony at the home of one of your friends, a member of the Gablio family living in Rome. During this ceremony there were readings from the prophets read aloud, a sermon given and then bread and wine offered on a makeshift altar. When you leave, a friend of yours asks you, "Who is Jesus, and who is God?" What answer do you suppose would be given?

Who is Jesus, and who is God? How do you answer that question asked by today's pagan?

Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

What was James' text or, if you will, upon what did James base his authority while speaking on this subject? Also, did I as a Jew recognize that authority and why?


So, the sermon given was based upon the prophets read aloud? Did Peter & Mark recognize the authority of the writings of say, Saint Paul as equal to those of the prophets (see 2 Peter 3:14-17, and 2 Peter 1:16-21)?


You see Saint Peter, your "Bishop of Rome", noted in his second epistle that the scriptures were "more sure" (ESV)** than the eyewitness accounts of the Apostles themselves (2 Peter 1:19) **[NET has "altogether reliable" which, according to the note, carries the same meaning.] Saint Peter follows that assurance in "prohetic word" up with the foundational argument that "prophecy of Scripture" does not come from the "will of men" but from the very Spirit of God. Hence, the written Word is the very production of God through men "carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21 ESV). In this same letter Saint Peter speaks of Saint Paul's writings and equates them in authority with "The other Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16 ESV). Essentially in that evaluation from Saint Peter he equates Pauls writings in matters of faith with the inspiration of the prophets writings.
Why even Saint Paul takes a stance which agrees with that of Saint Peter when he wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:14-17 taking an equally strong stance regarding the authority of Scripture.

As I understand it, the Catholic view of the Bible has compromised its unique authority by combining it with the tradition of the church. The traditions of the early church that once maintained the authority of the Scriptures now are pointed to and used to undermine that same authority.
The historic Protestant view is that the canonical Scripture is the voice of God in the world. It has an authority, or right to command, corresponding to its divine Author. For this reason, we submit our thoughts and moral standards to the Bible. It was through the recognition that the Bible cannot be subject to any person or group, however exalted, that the early Reformers (early Protestants) freed their consciences from human traditions and authorities.

I see many of the Catholic traditions as equal to those of the Pharisees and other Judaistic sects which sought to build boudaries around God's inspired text. IMO this began early in Judaism (See Isaiah 29:13) and reached a pinnicle, if you will, in the time of our Lord's firs advent (See Mark 7:1-12 & Matthew 15:1-9. Particularly Matthew 15:6 & Mark 7:9). I believe that the Judaistic sects meant to adhere to God's Word and "protect" the people by drawing boundaries aroung the Law (read written Word) of God with traditions but, in reality lost sight of the depth of our fallen nature and selfish propensities. So too, IMO, is the error of the Catholic traditions and their formulations of traditions in authority over the revelation of God.

Many are the Catholic fallacies IMHO. However, we must also admit that Protestant fallacies are no less numerous and concerning.

My 2 cents worth!

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Blessings,
Randy
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James hadn't written anything yet. His authority would based on him being an Apostle and his commission to teach per his instruction from Jesus. (cf Mt 28:18-20) The question again would be, who is Jesus?



Non-sequitur. I'm looking for the answer to the question: "Who is Jesus, and who is God?"


Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

Campion, I think a believer would have given essentially the same answer to both, with some tweaking for cultural communication as seen if we compare the various "gospel presentation" in Acts. The crunch is the bodily resurrection of the Lord. Along the lines of ...

Jesus is the Lord. He lived amongst us and did many amazing things, and he was crucified BUT then the God of Abraham raised him bodily from the dead! Many witnesses saw Him alive and were with Him when he was taken from their sight. He was the promised one who would be God come to rescue us from our sins, as seen in the scriptures (i.e. the Law and the Prophets), which speak of all these things. Jesus truly was/is the Son of God. Repent and follow Him as Lord.

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“Lord, in my zeal for love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love.” - Thomas Aquinas
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