The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

I read everything you posted and answered your questions but when I was trying to post it, I was told it was too large so I had to delete part of it in order to get my answer posted. I guess you didn't see my note to refer to your original post to see what I was answering.

As you stated above, when I became a Christian I also began my studies and after many years of study I have found many things conventional Christianity is teaching that is simply against what the Bible actually says. I have pointed out some of those errors here but you dont seem to respond to them directly but instead tell me I am wrong. I would like to know "why" I am wrong and have you list the Scriptures that prove me wrong.

Sorry but it surely does. God said He would destroy the city if He found fifty righteous men there. Then later He changed it to 45, then to 40 and continued to change it to all the way down to ten people and yet in the end, He changed it again and destroyed it for even fewer people. How can you say He did not change His mind? You cannot read the Scripture and say that. In addition God changed His mind when He took Adam out of the garden. Remember He had placed Adam in the garden to take care of it and after the sin, He removed Adam...

But look at the passages I cited before:

Genesis 18:26 "And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. 30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."

God changed His mind about the world He had created and decided to destroy it. Are you saying that was not a change? He did it again with Noah. He had decided to destroy the world, man and every creature on the earth but then changed His mind and allowed Noah and his family to live. How, pray tell, do you interpret the following passages?

Genesis 6:7 "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

And again here:

Exodus 32:10 "Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."

Exodus 32:14 "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Just another time He changed His mind.

Jonah 3:10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jeremiah 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9) And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10) If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.[/i]

I could cite more as you probably know. A few more would be Joel 2:13,14 Amos 7:3 and Jeremiah 26:3




Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; or James 1:17
Earlier I asked a specific set of questions regarding your contradictions on the immutability of God which you've ignored. Will you please answer?

I will have to answer these later as dinner calls and I may not be available later tonight but I promise to comment on them. Cal R.

What I mean is that your answers are non-sensical if you actually read what I wrote.

Cal, what do you make of 1 Sam 15:29?
"Furthermore, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not man who changes his mind." (HCSB)

What about Malachi 3:6?
"For I am the LORD, I do not change..."

How about the NT? James 1:17?
"All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change." (NET)

Uh oh. Still want to argue that God changes His mind? I "dont [sic] see how you can read the Scriptures I gave and say that He" does.

Although you apparently ignored Randy's answer about Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as my question whether you think God has hands and feet (after all, the Bible says He does ), just as God doesn't have hands or feet or a head, he uses anthropomorphisms to help us understand Him and learn. Trying to argue that He changes His mind is the same as arguing that he has actual physical hands and feet.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

first CalRed, I would like to comment on something you said. It might of been accidental but what you are saying is the exact opposite. God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins. Abraham was interceding for them. Abraham asked if God would spare the cities for 50 righteous people there. NOT destroy it for 50 righteous. Abraham keeps getting the numbers down, and God agrees he will spare (not destroy) the cities if 10 righteous people are found. Was God's initial plan scrapped? NO. I believe God already knew there wasn't going to be 10+ righteous people found. I believe this showed abraham that God was righteous in His decision, although he questioned it thinking there was righteous people that might die. (Although I do believe God would of spared the cities if 10 were found, because abraham interceded for them. And God said he would)

In Exodus chapter 32, we read the story of how the Israelites committed the sin of idolatry by making a golden calf and worshiping it while Moses was with God on top of a mountain. Because they had sinned, this angered God. So in Exodus 32:9-10 God said that He was going to destroy them. However, because Moses interceded for the Israelites by pleading with God in Exodus 32:11-14 , He “relented” (or “changed His mind”) about destroying them. This is an example of Moses being a Christ-like figure. He interceded with the father, and God accepted it.

To say God changes his mind after people repent, and turn from their sinful ways is not God changing his mind. It is accomplishing his ultimate plan. He threatens, punishes, and destroys. If it is a guniune repent God might grant mercy. In most of your examples it is man sinning and God saying he will punish them (depends on the example used.) God gives grace to Noah, is this really him changing His mind? I don't really see an act of mercy and changing his mind the same thing. Suppose a nation didn't repent or no one intercedes, and God promised them destruction. Is there a story where God changes his mind and doesn't bring them destruction. Do you think Gods whole master plan for his people was on chance. Was it chance that moses interceded for them. Chance that he didn't just say, "Lord you are rightous, destroy them." I don't believe God makes it up, and adjust things as he goes.

anthropomorphic language: ascribing human form or attributes to a being or thing not human, especially to a deity. This language is commonly given to describe God. Jesus and God are the same deity, but two differnt persons.

(Emphasis mine)
To repent is to change one's mind. Oh I get it You're a KJV-only believer....



It's obvious to me you are deeply entrenched in error. It is also obvious that you will not reason with the passages in an irenic manner. Therefore I will not even attempt to explain the Hebrew and Greek behind your "repent" and "relent" passages. It is interesting that those who translated your "preferred" KJV understood and supported the doctrines that P-bob and I am defending. I would be interested in how you deal with passages which say the Lord does not "repent" and then others which say he "repented".

One further question that I ask you to consider. If God can change his mind, in what then can we have any hope? You say he doesn't lie...what if he changes his mind? You say he's promised....What if he changes his mind? You say he's good....what if he changes his mind? Where is there any assurance in this? Frankly there is none.

You are indeed one of the many who've bought into the Openness Theological error. Your arguments follow the same lines as Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd. Another of your (perhaps misinformed) contradictions.

Blessings,
Randy

Wait a minute. Hold on. My preferred Bible says God doesn't change His mind (and so does yours). Now what do we do?

Of the rest of your comments, I don't care what you think they mean, because you said earlier:
I quoted Scripture that actually says God doesn't change - His mind or anything else for that matter - and you respond with what you think they say.

I can't figure out how you can assert that God can change His mind even though the Bible clearly teaches He doesn't change.

And now you say God has actual hands and feet!

I agree with Randy. Even more than changing "what Scriptures mean," you are outside of biblical, orthodox theology.

Hi Calred,
I agree with Randy and Pschobobicus that you only misinterpret the text you gave because man was really born spiritually blind John 9:39-41,Gen 3:5

Isaiah 55:8-9 God is not the same as of man that virtually changes his thought.

_________________
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins. Abraham was interceding for them. Abraham asked if God would spare the cities for 50 righteous people there. NOT destroy it for 50 righteous. Abraham keeps getting the numbers down, and God agrees he will spare (not destroy) the cities if 10 righteous people are found. Was God's initial plan scrapped? NO. I believe God already knew there wasn't going to be 10+ righteous people found. I believe this showed Abraham that God was righteous in His decision, although he questioned it thinking there was righteous people that might die. (Although I do believe God would of spared the cities if 10 were found, because Abraham interceded for them. And God said he would)

You are correct it was a typo as you can tell by the context what I meant and fortunately it seemed to be obvious. Unfortunately spell checkers aren't very good in grammatical errors although they try. The important point I wanted to make however is that God bargained with Abraham and that has to be considered changing His mind. The other instances I cited are God changing His mind as well because He intended to do something else.

But then you say that God would have spared the cities if there had been 10 people found and as it turned out, there were none found because Lot and all his people proved to not be righteous.

edited because it was accidently posted too quickly.

You know, I typed out a long post to respond, but I think that was a total waste of time. You are so all over the road that if this forum had a police force they'd arrest you for reckless posting.
...unless God changes His mind...

For everyone else: This is what happens when someone subjects Scripture to "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20).

I'm shaking the dust of this thread from my sandals.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

Claiming the KJV as a superior translation is a pretty serious case of tunnel vision. There is really no way to successfully argue that case.

There are two parallel lines: God predestinates and man is held accountable. Both are sound biblical doctrine. I point you to Isaiah 10:5-19 to give you an example. God sent Assyria to punish Jerusalem for their sin. God was righteous and holy in this. At the same time Assyria was also going to face punishment. One might say, "well they were only doing what gold made them do?" But what does bible say farther down. They were boastful and denied God's hand in it, verse 13-15.

Preaching is used as a means for God to call people. God is active in bringing in his sheep. Romans 8:29-31. "those he predestined, he also called"

no, Im saying it is often given to help us understand God better. God is described in human attributes so that are simple minds will understand better.