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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:01 pm 
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psychobobicus wrote:
Cal, if you aren't going to read all of what I respond to you, I see no point in continuing further. When I first became a Christian, I believed as you did, but as I read the Bible and studied, I was forced out of my wrong opinion to where I am now. I realized that I had been seeing the Bible through the lens of humanism. I encourage you not to let the world's philosophies cloud your reading of the Bible.


I read everything you posted and answered your questions but when I was trying to post it, I was told it was too large so I had to delete part of it in order to get my answer posted. I guess you didn't see my note to refer to your original post to see what I was answering.

As you stated above, when I became a Christian I also began my studies and after many years of study I have found many things conventional Christianity is teaching that is simply against what the Bible actually says. I have pointed out some of those errors here but you dont seem to respond to them directly but instead tell me I am wrong. I would like to know "why" I am wrong and have you list the Scriptures that prove me wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:03 pm 
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RTCrudgi wrote:
Calred,
CalRed wrote:
I haven't said that I believe God can be wrong but the Bible is clear that He has changed His mind.


RTCrudgi wrote:
The only support you cite is Genesis 18. Nowhere does this passage say God changed his mind (Notice Gn. 18:20-21). Did Abraham intercede for the righteous? Yes! As Gn. 18:17-19 shows, God gave Abraham the opportunity to intercede for the people and show the heart of a servant of God. The chapter you've cited does not show God changing his mind.


Sorry but it surely does. God said He would destroy the city if He found fifty righteous men there. Then later He changed it to 45, then to 40 and continued to change it to all the way down to ten people and yet in the end, He changed it again and destroyed it for even fewer people. How can you say He did not change His mind? You cannot read the Scripture and say that. In addition God changed His mind when He took Adam out of the garden. Remember He had placed Adam in the garden to take care of it and after the sin, He removed Adam...

But look at the passages I cited before:


Genesis 18:26 "And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. 30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."


God changed His mind about the world He had created and decided to destroy it. Are you saying that was not a change? He did it again with Noah. He had decided to destroy the world, man and every creature on the earth but then changed His mind and allowed Noah and his family to live. How, pray tell, do you interpret the following passages?

Genesis 6:7 "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

And again here:

Exodus 32:10 "Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."

Exodus 32:14 "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Just another time He changed His mind.

Jonah 3:10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jeremiah 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9) And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10) If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.[/i]

I could cite more as you probably know. A few more would be Joel 2:13,14 Amos 7:3 and Jeremiah 26:3




Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; or James 1:17
Earlier I asked a specific set of questions regarding your contradictions on the immutability of God which you've ignored. Will you please answer?

I will have to answer these later as dinner calls and I may not be available later tonight but I promise to comment on them. Cal R.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:26 pm 
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CalRed wrote:
I read everything you posted and answered your questions
:roll: What I mean is that your answers are non-sensical if you actually read what I wrote.

Cal, what do you make of 1 Sam 15:29?
"Furthermore, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not man who changes his mind." (HCSB)

What about Malachi 3:6?
"For I am the LORD, I do not change..."

How about the NT? James 1:17?
"All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change." (NET)

Uh oh. Still want to argue that God changes His mind? I "dont [sic] see how you can read the Scriptures I gave and say that He" does.

Although you apparently ignored Randy's answer about Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as my question whether you think God has hands and feet (after all, the Bible says He does :roll: ), just as God doesn't have hands or feet or a head, he uses anthropomorphisms to help us understand Him and learn. Trying to argue that He changes His mind is the same as arguing that he has actual physical hands and feet.

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:22 am 
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psychobobicus wrote:
CalRed wrote:
I read everything you posted and answered your questions
:roll: What I mean is that your answers are non-sensical if you actually read what I wrote.

At lease I answer your questions. You don't even comment on the Scriptures I give you.

Cal, what do you make of 1 Sam 15:29?
"Furthermore, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not man who changes his mind." (HCSB)

I prefer to comment on the KJV . There is nothing there about changing His mind.

1 Sam 15:29 "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent : for he is not a man, that he should repent."

This phrase "Here he refers to God as the "strength of Israel". This is done to show why God neither will lie or can lie. It is man's weakness that allows and makes man lie. Oftentimes man cannot accomplish his goals without lies. God needs no such lies. He can do whatever He pleases because He has absolute power.

I have never said that God lies but I have produced several Scriptures that says He has changed His mind. I haven't seen you comment on those Scriptures.

Now keep looking further to verse 35, same chapter and see that the Lord repented that He had made Saul King of Israel. Is this the same Lord who doesn't repent?


What about Malachi 3:6?
"For I am the LORD, I do not change..."

This one requires proper context. Here God is saying what He will do and He is sending a messenger to accomplish his wishes. He is telling them they will be purified and purged and He will come in judgment of them and against false swearers, oppression, etc. You need to start reading at verse 1.

Verse 6 tells them in no uncertain terms that He will not change His mind about this. That's why He says ye sons of Jacob are not consumed (accomplished).


How about the NT? James 1:17?
"All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change." (NET)

Again this needs to be read in full context. God is not saying He doesn't change His mind. James is telling them that God's perfect gifts and every good gift will remain as God has promised. There is no mention here of changing His mind.

Uh oh. Still want to argue that God changes His mind? I "dont [sic] see how you can read the Scriptures I gave and say that He" does.

Although you apparently ignored Randy's answer about Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as my question whether you think God has hands and feet (after all, the Bible says He does :roll: ), just as God doesn't have hands or feet or a head, he uses anthropomorphisms to help us understand Him and learn. Trying to argue that He changes His mind is the same as arguing that he has actual physical hands and feet.


I went into great detail about Abraham with Randy. Surprised you didn't read it. As far as God having hands or feet I know He is spiritual and wouldn't want to believe He has them but then Jesus said that when you see Him you have seens the Father and Jesus certainly had hands and feet.

Now if you will, please comment on the verses I have listed prior which show that God changed His mind.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:09 am 
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first CalRed, I would like to comment on something you said. It might of been accidental but what you are saying is the exact opposite.
Quote:
Sorry but it surely does. God said He would destroy the city if He found fifty righteous men there. Then later He changed it to 45, then to 40 and continued to change it to all the way down to ten people and yet in the end, He changed it again and destroyed it for even fewer people. How can you say He did not change His mind? You cannot read the Scripture and say that. In addition God changed His mind when He took Adam out of the garden. Remember He had placed Adam in the garden to take care of it and after the sin, He removed Adam...
God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins. Abraham was interceding for them. Abraham asked if God would spare the cities for 50 righteous people there. NOT destroy it for 50 righteous. Abraham keeps getting the numbers down, and God agrees he will spare (not destroy) the cities if 10 righteous people are found. Was God's initial plan scrapped? NO. I believe God already knew there wasn't going to be 10+ righteous people found. I believe this showed abraham that God was righteous in His decision, although he questioned it thinking there was righteous people that might die. (Although I do believe God would of spared the cities if 10 were found, because abraham interceded for them. And God said he would)

In Exodus chapter 32, we read the story of how the Israelites committed the sin of idolatry by making a golden calf and worshiping it while Moses was with God on top of a mountain. Because they had sinned, this angered God. So in Exodus 32:9-10 God said that He was going to destroy them. However, because Moses interceded for the Israelites by pleading with God in Exodus 32:11-14 , He “relented” (or “changed His mind”) about destroying them. This is an example of Moses being a Christ-like figure. He interceded with the father, and God accepted it.

To say God changes his mind after people repent, and turn from their sinful ways is not God changing his mind. It is accomplishing his ultimate plan. He threatens, punishes, and destroys. If it is a guniune repent God might grant mercy. In most of your examples it is man sinning and God saying he will punish them (depends on the example used.) God gives grace to Noah, is this really him changing His mind? I don't really see an act of mercy and changing his mind the same thing. Suppose a nation didn't repent or no one intercedes, and God promised them destruction. Is there a story where God changes his mind and doesn't bring them destruction. Do you think Gods whole master plan for his people was on chance. Was it chance that moses interceded for them. Chance that he didn't just say, "Lord you are rightous, destroy them." I don't believe God makes it up, and adjust things as he goes.

anthropomorphic language: ascribing human form or attributes to a being or thing not human, especially to a deity. This language is commonly given to describe God. Jesus and God are the same deity, but two differnt persons.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:44 am 
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CalRed wrote:
I prefer to comment on the KJV . There is nothing there about changing His mind. 1 Sam 15:29 "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent : for he is not a man, that he should repent."
(Emphasis mine)
To repent is to change one's mind. Oh I get it You're a KJV-only believer....
Quote:
KJV Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Quote:
KJV James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

It's obvious to me you are deeply entrenched in error. It is also obvious that you will not reason with the passages in an irenic manner. Therefore I will not even attempt to explain the Hebrew and Greek behind your "repent" and "relent" passages. It is interesting that those who translated your "preferred" KJV understood and supported the doctrines that P-bob and I am defending. I would be interested in how you deal with passages which say the Lord does not "repent" and then others which say he "repented".

One further question that I ask you to consider. If God can change his mind, in what then can we have any hope? You say he doesn't lie...what if he changes his mind? You say he's promised....What if he changes his mind? You say he's good....what if he changes his mind? Where is there any assurance in this? Frankly there is none.

You are indeed one of the many who've bought into the Openness Theological error. Your arguments follow the same lines as Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd. Another of your (perhaps misinformed) contradictions.

Blessings,
Randy


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:17 pm 
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CalRed wrote:
I prefer to comment on the KJV
Wait a minute. Hold on. My preferred Bible says God doesn't change His mind (and so does yours). Now what do we do?

Of the rest of your comments, I don't care what you think they mean, because you said earlier:
CalRed wrote:
I had hoped we could discuss what Scriptures actually say rather than what someone else thinks they say.
I quoted Scripture that actually says God doesn't change - His mind or anything else for that matter - and you respond with what you think they say.

I can't figure out how you can assert that God can change His mind even though the Bible clearly teaches He doesn't change.

And now you say God has actual hands and feet!

I agree with Randy. Even more than changing "what Scriptures mean," you are outside of biblical, orthodox theology.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:15 pm 
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Hi Calred,
I agree with Randy and Pschobobicus that you only misinterpret the text you gave because man was really born spiritually blind John 9:39-41,Gen 3:5

Isaiah 55:8-9 God is not the same as of man that virtually changes his thought.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:55 pm 
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tony e wrote:
first CalRed, I would like to comment on something you said. It might of been accidental but what you are saying is the exact opposite.
Quote:
Sorry but it surely does. God said He would destroy the city if He found fifty righteous men there. Then later He changed it to 45, then to 40 and continued to change it to all the way down to ten people and yet in the end, He changed it again and destroyed it for even fewer people. How can you say He did not change His mind? You cannot read the Scripture and say that. In addition God changed His mind when He took Adam out of the garden. Remember He had placed Adam in the garden to take care of it and after the sin, He removed Adam...
God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins. Abraham was interceding for them. Abraham asked if God would spare the cities for 50 righteous people there. NOT destroy it for 50 righteous. Abraham keeps getting the numbers down, and God agrees he will spare (not destroy) the cities if 10 righteous people are found. Was God's initial plan scrapped? NO. I believe God already knew there wasn't going to be 10+ righteous people found. I believe this showed Abraham that God was righteous in His decision, although he questioned it thinking there was righteous people that might die. (Although I do believe God would of spared the cities if 10 were found, because Abraham interceded for them. And God said he would)

You are correct it was a typo as you can tell by the context what I meant and fortunately it seemed to be obvious. Unfortunately spell checkers aren't very good in grammatical errors although they try. The important point I wanted to make however is that God bargained with Abraham and that has to be considered changing His mind. The other instances I cited are God changing His mind as well because He intended to do something else.

But then you say that God would have spared the cities if there had been 10 people found and as it turned out, there were none found because Lot and all his people proved to not be righteous.


edited because it was accidently posted too quickly.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:19 am 
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Last edited by Gideon on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CoC #15


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:42 am 
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Last edited by Gideon on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:54 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:07 am 
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CalRed wrote:
Actually the KJV is almost word for word identical to Tyndale and you should read his commentaries on the subjects you are discussing.
Quote:
Your preferred Bible is one of the modern ones and does not conform to the ancient texts.
:angry7: You know, I typed out a long post to respond, but I think that was a total waste of time. You are so all over the road that if this forum had a police force they'd arrest you for reckless posting.
CalRed wrote:
The assurance you are seeking is in the Gospel. Everything necessary for assurance is there.
...unless God changes His mind... :roll:

For everyone else: This is what happens when someone subjects Scripture to "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20).

I'm shaking the dust of this thread from my sandals.

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:24 am 
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Claiming the KJV as a superior translation is a pretty serious case of tunnel vision. There is really no way to successfully argue that case.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:46 am 
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Quote:
Now for those who believe this was all according to God's plan would have to believe we have a very hateful and vengeful God and that gives more fuel to non-believes and atheists. In addition, there are those who insist God had planned everything that would ever happen and that just accentuates it all.
There are two parallel lines: God predestinates and man is held accountable. Both are sound biblical doctrine. I point you to Isaiah 10:5-19 to give you an example. God sent Assyria to punish Jerusalem for their sin. God was righteous and holy in this. At the same time Assyria was also going to face punishment. One might say, "well they were only doing what gold made them do?" But what does bible say farther down. They were boastful and denied God's hand in it, verse 13-15.

Quote:
Why do we have thousands and thousands of preachers and churches trying to get salvation for man, preaching the Gospel, as God commanded it, trying to get them to turn to God as the Gospel tells us for their salvation but God has already determined all who will be saved and all who will be condemned.
Preaching is used as a means for God to call people. God is active in bringing in his sheep. Romans 8:29-31. "those he predestined, he also called"

Quote:
Are you saying that the Bible is all anthropomorphic language?
no, Im saying it is often given to help us understand God better. God is described in human attributes so that are simple minds will understand better.


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