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I am at work right now trying to bring back a woman who has (for all intents and purposes) abandoned the Faith despite having been openly confronted about her disobedience and called to repentance. I am working with her abandoned husband and children (and extended family) to see if she could not be brought back to the obedience she has previously confessed with her mouth and by her baptism. Further, we have had to have some discussions among the leadership of the congregation I minister among concerning what must be done to deal with her and see if she might be brought back (and also if she should think to return without some form of public confession and repentance of sin because of the nature of the sin).

You are certainly right that certain of the Brethren congregations prefer to expel than to restore and choose this far too quickly. They are certainly not the only ones who practice this. But, on the other hand, far more congregations across the board simply do not exercise any form of such discipline (even in many cases not openly speaking about sin) as expulsion or excommunication because they simply do not confront sin with the same intensity which it may at times require. Grace and mercy, but holiness and purity. Redemption, if possible, should be our goal, but some simply will not be restored and so they are "anathema".

By the way...what is YMMV? Is it "your mileage may vary" and is this with regard to my experiences in dealing with such things?

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I think you are doing the right thing antipater.

I am afraid that many churches are a collection of individuals rather than a community of disciples, and how can discipline or restoration occur amongst disconnected persons?

YMMV is what you say. Interpretation: Your experiences may be different from mine.

It's 4am and I am going back to bed. May your day be prayerful.

John

_________________
John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

Sorry I wasn't as clear and detailed about what I meant by "church discipline" in my original post.

Though I do agree that there are various types of "chastisements" instituted by church leaders for different situations, what I ultimately meant by church discipline is excommunication (clear cut disfellowshipping).

Getting that out of the way, my post was about what kinds of sinful behavior when unrepented of can lead to this type of ultimate act of discipline. We know that church leaders will institute this last resort discipline on a member who unrepentantly engages in sins like adultery, robbery, idol worship, drug pushing, etc. However, what about if the member engages in gossip, slander, covetousness, racism, neglect of the needy, etc. without repentance? Shouldn't they also be put out of the church after a lengthy session of admonishing by the leaders?

We often focus on sins of commission, what about sins of omission? Are we to be more "harsh" on a guy who is always seeking the services of prostitutes (1 Cor 6:15-20) compared to a guy who is always partial to the wealthy against the poor (Jas 2:1-13)?

My point is that even though many Protestants say that we reject the Roman Catholic separation between mortal and venial sins on a theological level, we don't always follow through with what James says in James 2:10-11 in our ecclesiastical practices. The problem with that is we end up being inconsistent and even unbiblical. I know that various sins brings different earthly consequences. But all sins (whether it be murder or coveting) brings with it complete separation from God for eternity. Thus, I think this should be the key in the way we handle church discipline.

Not all sins are so public though, which is a big part of the problem. How do I know that a person is unrepentantly covetous? Do I base this off of the things they possess, how often they talk about acquiring more, or what? Or do I base it off of the manner in which they might publicly demonstrate this through the abuse of others for their own gain or in a manner like Ananias and Sapphira? The same would pertain to issues like "neglect of the poor" which is not something which someone can usually ever judge in another. But we could discipline someone who abused the poor because this is a public act. Racism may not normally show itself, but if it is made public (e.g., someone was shown to be a current member of the Neo-Nazis and a member of the Church) then this is another matter that would need dealt with. As far as gossip and slander go...they are public acts that (if there is non-repentance) would necessitate cutting the individual off from church fellowship. I have not done so, but I know some churches that have. This must be dealt with in a manner that actually allows for the discipline of the Church rather than simply someone (even a pastor) saying that someone has been gossiping or slandering. Such things require discernment and wisdom on the part of the leadership of the congregation, but if proven true must be dealt with (and, if necessary, the individual expelled from fellowship).

_________________
Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
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We have a saying in software metrics that "If it is important it is not easy to measure, and if it is easy to measure it is not important". This aphorism is of more general application than just systems and software.

When we look at the greatest commandment and the one like it we find that both of these are hard to measure.

_________________
John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

At the risk of getting off topic, we do have standards for the two great commandments. Love for God can be seen in our love for one another and in our obedience to God's commands. And love for one another can be seen in our sacrificially bearing one another's burdens and in our preferring one another before ourselves.

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Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

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I see this as quite central to the topic, or perhaps as encompassing the topic from a broader view.

And I note that the neighbourliness exhibited by the Samaritan is to all people, and not just the saints.

_________________
John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes