The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

Hi folks, this is such an interesting topic, and your posts were so insightful, I couldn't keep lurking!

I was discussing the following verse on the Ship of Fools Forum, and it was suggested that God intentionally made the man blind so that He would be glorified:

3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. John 9

See also:
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." John 11

So following the pattern, God made Adam weak willed so that he would stumble and then healed him.

Unless you have contrast, nothing is visible. Unless there is a need, how can one show generosity? Unless a person falls, how can you display love (and its setting: self sacrifice, cost, vulnerability... )?

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

This line of reasoning would also imply that God made some of the angels weak-willed, but not others. Thus the angels that fell would have fallen because God created them with an inherent flaw, making God ultimately responsible for their failure while He offers them no healing or redemption but holds them eternally condemned. In the same way, the idea that God created Adam with a flaw that predetermined his failure would ultimately make God responsible for that failure. Not only that, but it would make God ultimately responsible for the sinful nature of all of Adam's descendants. None of this is supported by Scripture.

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32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Romans 11

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

All tragedies are opportunities for good people to step up and fulfill their earthly objective and help others fulfill their earthly objective. God does not desire: satan to roam the earth, sin, Jesus to go to the cross, hell for the wicked, or any tragedy, but allows these things to happen (at great personal sacrifice) so at least some individuals will fulfill their objective and become like God Himself with Godly type Love.

10Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. Isaiah 53

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

Sam, is this supposed to be a response to my last post? If it is, I fail to see how it addresses my comments.

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Cale, you objected to my view on two counts:

1) It makes God responsible for our sins

2) there is no support for the above view in Scripture

I have provided Scriptural support to prove that God is responsible for man's sin.

There is no evil in this view if you examine the teleology of God's actions.

Put it this way:

What is the purpose of Creation?

How would God bring about this purpose?

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

Excuse me Sam, but I don't think you've done that at all. Nor do I believe it is possible to correctly interpret the Scriptures so as to make God the author of sin. The very idea is antithetical to God's nature as he has revealed himself to us, your questions notwithstanding. I won't disagree with you that God is glorified in those who are redeemed in Christ, but I would argue that the corruption of his creation is not a logical requirement for God's glorification therein. God was originally glorified in all of his creation because it was all good when he made it. He was glorified in man before man fell, just as he was and continues to be glorified in his holy angels. "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!" (Isa 6:3 [ESV])

You can't be serious, Sam. What you are saying is that the end justifies the means. But God's word is clear that such reasoning is wrong (Rom 3:8).

1 John 1:5 5 Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. Context (NET)

James 1:13-17 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Do not be led astray, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change. Context (NET)

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Gideon wrote:


Cale, you've just disagreed without using Scripture, our ruling dictum. You might just as well have said, "Because I said so" or "It's not logical" or "It's not there in the spirit of the text". Specifics, please.



Okay, "weak willed" may have been a poor choice of words. How about young, immature, impressionable? I think you can see where I'm going. God started of with a little baby and, celebrating all the good things that we think of in the setting of the elements that accompany free will, allowed him to make his own choices, letting him fall, and helping him get up, letting him learn from his mistakes, so that finally, he is able to walk on his own, and appreciate God! Maybe it's an anthropomorphism to use that analogy, but we are made in His image and many of the processes and elements of humanity (family, creativity, morality) are mirroring those of God.



Ah, the operative word is "good": for what? Being a fellow Armininian

("Not that rabbit trail!" The Song Lady, sternly.
"Hi Jenn!" me, sheepishly!)

you would appreciate the need for a framework for a "good" implementation of your doctrine. Wouldn't free will require a good orientation in the elements making up a solid setting for informed choices?



You have to prove that I meant God brings about evil, and I just defended myself in the above paragraphs. And the second passage buttresses what I have just proposed.

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

Sam, I was responding to your claim that you had provided scriptural support to prove that God is responsible for man's sin. I say you didn't. If you think you did, please explain how you have proved God is responsible for man's sin. Since you are the one claiming to prove your assertion from Scripture, I think the onus is logically yours. I don't need to prove the impossibility of doing what you claim. You need to make your proof, if possible. For my part, I think the idea that God being responsible for man's sin is antithetical to God's revealed nature because, quite simply, God is holy. (And I did provide scripture for that.) God hates sin because he is holy. It is therefore illogical and inconceivable that he would be the author of sin.

I don't know how we would measure Adam's maturity, etc. God didn't create him as a baby, but as a full-grown man, made in God's image and capable of ruling the earth as God's regent.

You seem to be reading much into God's affirmation that his creation was good. "Good" is a qualitative descriptor that doesn't inherently require a qualification of purpose. But if I were to imagine a purpose, it would be centered on God rather than the creation. I would imagine that God's creation was good for pleasing God.

Sam, you said that God is responsible for man's sin. Sin is evil. If you make God out to be responsible for sin, then you make him out to be responsible for evil.

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Cale wrote:


Cale, Cale, is it so hard to see the teaching? Let me try again.

God chose Israel to be His People, the means by which all the nations of the world would be blessed. But His real intention, apart from His stated intention, was that He would use people from different nations to so bless all the nations of the world.
47“For so the Lord has commanded us,
         ‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
         THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’” Acts 13

25As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" Romans 9

In order to bring about this He gave them the Law, which He said was easy to follow:

 11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. Deuteronomy 30

But Peter said:
10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? Acts 15

The Law that God gave to Israel was hard to understand and bear, in the form it was received! Because of this the Jews were found disobedient! Talk about a setup, a deception even! And God intended it:

32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Romans 11

God intended to show the world that He was merciful, and this is how He chose to do it. You have a problem, it's with God, not me! In His wisdom, He decided this was best. I have suggested why He so thought. This is not of academic interest, but knowing God's plans and ways allows us to align with them, and be found faithful in abiding in His Word, as Jesus taught.

This motif, theme, of God provoking evil acts for the larger good, is found in many places in Scripture, enabling us to crosscheck and reinforce the teaching:

20"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. Genesis 50

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

Sam, are you or are you not affirming that God is responsible for man's sin? Because if you are, you are saying he is responsible for all sin in the world: murders, rapes, thefts, sexual immoralities, idolatries, holocausts, abortions, blasphemies, etc. It is one thing to say that God turns men's purposes to accomplish his own purposes, and another thing entirely to say that God is the author of sin which is utterly contrary to his nature. And it is one thing to say that God provokes sinful men to do what is in their hearts, but it is another to say that God arranged for man to rebel against him and orchestrated his fall, as David orchestrated Uriah's fall.

I have no problem with God or with what the Scriptures say about him, for God is unwaveringly holy, righteous, pure, honorable, just, true, faithful; and so say the Scriptures. What I object to is that you attribute to God the sinfulness of man and therefore all of man's sins against God. What you are claiming, in fact, is that God has denied himself. But Scripture attests that God cannot deny himself (2 Tim 2:13); he must remain true to his nature.

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I have given an example of God provoking evil. If He did it once He can do it again.

I have suggested His reason for doing so, to teach life skills to the people He wants for Himself, those He wishes to call His own.

Consider, does one have babies or full grown men as progeny?

And if you wanted to teach your children how important it is to be to be merciful, wouldn't you cause them to sin (not difficult, they are so immature), and then show them what mercy is, and how it is dispensed?

The unavoidable debt:

27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. Matt 18

The unavoidable atonement:

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Phillipians 2

13"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. John 15

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.1 Peter 2

The unavoidable conclusion:

17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you ...

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Eph 1

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

As I've already pointed out, Sam, there is a big difference between saying that God provokes sinful men to do what is in their hearts and saying that he orchestrated Adam's fall and is therefore responsible for the sinfulness and the sins of all humanity.

Absolutely not!

Matthew 18:6 6 “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea. Context (NET)

Nor does God cause anyone to sin.

James 1:13 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. Context (NET)

On the contrary, God helps us to not sin. And nowhere does Scripture teach that Adam's disobedience was unavoidable, as you suggest, any more than it teaches that you or I must sin when we are tempted.

1Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is unusual for human beings. But God is faithful, and he will not allow you to be tempted beyond your strength. Instead, along with the temptation he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to endure it. (ISV)

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Gideon wrote:


But He caused the act that landed Joseph in Egypt! He gave Joseph a vision that made him act so obnoxiously that his brothers planned to get rid of him:

5Then Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him even more. 6He said to them, “Please listen to this dream which I have had; 7for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf.” 8Then his brothers said to him, “Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. Genesis 37

God meant it for good, IOW, it was He who set in motion His plan to preserve Israel, by igniting a provocative act. IOW, the ends did justify the means. But then God's goodness transcends our goodness. In fact only God is good: our idea of goodness can not even comprehend His goodness, they are as filthy rags before Him.



Well there are sins and then there are SINS. Which is the greater sin, to leave the children ignorant of God's goodness, or to let them sin and learn of God's mercy and model that mercy? BTW, look at the word "believe" there. It is a word describing a cognitive act. The sin is NOT to believe in Jesus, and in the process believe wrong things about God, that He is not good and merciful.

13"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matt 9




In the following passage, God is the prime cause of tempting, with a display of signs and wonders, to test faithfulness (just to disprove your sweeping claims):

1If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. Deuteronomy 13



He put an attractive object in front of a child and told him not to touch it. An exercise in futility, a lesson in inevitability. Looks like a setup, a scenario to teach an object lesson. Notice no help was given.



Why would the Lamb be slain even before the foundation of the world, as Randy queries in the second post in this thread, if it was not unavoidable? God kept things in place even before the Fall, the First Aid box ready, even before the child touched the hot stove.


This teaches that the sins allowed to occur were objective demonstrations of the destructiveness of sin, and the need not to despair, as God has a purpose for allowing it to happen. This information will allow us to endure the process, news that will be heard even by the bones in the valley:

4Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. Ezekiel 37

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 1 Peter 3

BTW, stay cool, don't tear your clothes and throw dust in the air, like the teachers of the Law, who though they were hearing blasphemy against the shema... they were just hearing something that transcended shema.

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.