Bible Forum

The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

It is currently Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:03 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Old World
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Protestant (Garden variety)
Name of your church: Local Parish
I was discussing with a Roman Catholic the issue of the "fornication clause" in Matthew 19:9. I argued that the only grounds for divorce would be adultery of one or both spouses. But then I was presented with this difficulty:

Quote:
The man who divorces his wife (without either one of them having been unfaithful during the marriage) and marries another woman, commits adultery.

Luke 16:18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband, committeth adultery.

That means that the man is still married to his first wife, because you cannot commit adultery against someone you're not married to.

However, in the very act of remarrying, THE MAN FALLS UNDER THE "FORNICATION EXCEPTION" MENTIONED BY CHRIST because it constitutes adultery, which then allows him to remarry because his adulterous act dissolves the first marriage. But if his first marriage is dissolved, that means his second marriage is NOT adultery.

How could it be adultery? According to you, by getting remarried, the man just dissolved his first marriage. If his first marriage is dissolved, a second marriage cannot constitute adultery.

But if the second marriage is NOT adultery, HOW CAN THE FIRST MARRIAGE BE DISSOLVED? And if the first marriage is NOT dissolved, THEN THE SECOND MARRIAGE MUST BE ADULTERY. The man is attempting marriage to a woman while he is still married to someone else. Again, you can't commit adultery against someone you're not married to, so the first wife is still his wife.

Hence, your position entails saying that the second marriage IS adultery at the same time you say the second marriage IS NOT adultery.

However, Christ says THE SECOND MARRIAGE IS ADULTERY, because the man put away his wife and remarried even though both of them had been faithful during the marriage.

By asserting that a man can dissolve a marriage by committing adultery, you're admitting that Christ taught two opposing things, and that is an absurdity.


I know something's off but I can't put my mind to it. How would you respond to that? I'd like to hear your inputs.

_________________
"THE LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Old World
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Protestant (Garden variety)
Name of your church: Local Parish
So, basically, the problem is this:

John and Susan are married. John divorces Susan for some petty reason and marries Helen. His divorce was unlawful, therefore he's committing adultery against Susan with Helen. But adultery is a lawful ground for divorce to begin with, so this would make his first marriage with Susan legally or morally dissolved. This is the difficulty he presented me with, it seems.

_________________
"THE LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:59 pm
Posts: 2820
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Non-denominational
Name of your church: OBC
sin really complicates things doesn't it

The Areopagite wrote:
But adultery is a lawful ground for divorce to begin with, so this would make his first marriage with Susan legally or morally dissolved
this part doesn't follow because it was not the reason John divorced Susan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Old World
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Protestant (Garden variety)
Name of your church: Local Parish
John procured and married Helen. He committed adultery against Susan. According to the person I'm arguing with, this would make his second marriage to Susan valid because his adultery automatically meant that his first marriage was dissolved.

I agree that it doesn't follow because it is Susan who was wronged, not John. It is Susan who has grounds for divorce, not John. And having grounds for divorce doesn't necessarily mean that Susan will divorce John, only that she can, isn't that so? Is something else escaping me here?

And what if Susan also cheated on John with Michael? In that case, both husband and wife violated their sacred bonds. Both would have grounds to divorce one another, isn't that so?

_________________
"THE LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 1081
Location: Charlotte, MI
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Baptist
Name of your church: New Life Fellowhip
This is quite a conundrum. First, Jesus' statement on divorce in this chapter and in Mark 10 are related to Deut. 24:1-4. In Deut. the issue of divorce was more of a procedure than principle. It is a matter of taking Scripture as it stands as opposed to what we want to do or our desire to have it our way. I know historically that the Roman Catholic church as been opposed to divorce but they have given annulments for some reasons, despite King Henry VIII reasons for an annulment. In addition, there have been many Catholics who have walked right past the church's teaching on divorce.

I have a quote from my "Hard Sayings of the Bible," by Davids, Bruce, Waltke, Baruch, pp. 431-435. "Is it wise to take Jesus' rulings or other practical issues and give them legislative force?...It is better, probably, to let his words stand in their uncompromising rigor as the ideal at which his followers ought to aim." p. 435


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Old World
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Protestant (Garden variety)
Name of your church: Local Parish
Here's another Roman Catholic explanation for the "fornication clause":

Quote:
The Lord is referring to Jewish law in the case of fornication. It says fornication, and it means fornication. The set up is Matthew 19: "And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Jesus says you can't have divorce period. The Jews pounce on this and ask about Moses. Jesus says this was do to hardness in heart, then gives the famous quote: "And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery."

The "fornication" is in regards to this Jewish Law, see Deut. 22:

"If a man marry a wife, and afterwards hate her, And seek occasions to put her away, laying to her charge a very ill name, and say: I took this woman to wife, and going in to her, I found her not a virgin: Her father and mother shall take her, and shall bring with them the tokens of her virginity to the ancients of the city that are in the gate: And the father shall say: I gave my daughter unto this man to wife: and because he hateth her, He layeth to her charge a very ill name, so as to say: I found not thy daughter a virgin: and behold these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the ancients of the city: And the ancients of that city shall take that man, and beat him, Condemning him besides in a hundred sides of silver, which he shall give to the damsel's father, because he hath defamed by a very ill name a virgin of Israel: and he shall have her to wife, and may not put her away all the days of his life. But if what he charged her with be true, and virginity be not found in the damsel: They shall cast her out of the doors of her father's house, and the men of the city shall stone her to death, and she shall die: because she hath done a wicked thing in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: and thou shalt take away the evil out of the midst of thee."

Jesus takes away the Moses exception. However, if you find that your virgin wife is not a virgin on your wedding night, then the marriage is invalid. It was fraudulent. In other words, it is an invalid wedding. This does not mean that you can't marry a virgin. It means if you married her thinking she was a virgin, and she represented it as such, and you find out by the "tokens of her virginity" that she wasn't a virgin, then you can put her away and remarry. This "virginity test" (a white cloth), or rather, the failing of the virginity test, is what the Jews refer to as fornication in marriage. That is why the Lord switches words. You can't divorce your wife, except for Fornication, or you will commit Adultery if you remarry.

I'm pointing out the mystery of the Lord changing words. Put it this way. You are a Jew at that time and listen in. You hear Jesus say, "You can not get a divorce and remarry, except in the case of fornication, or it will be adultery." How would the Jew interpret that? He would interpret it according to standing Jewish law, which covers the "fornication" case. The Jew would know exactly what the Lord is talking about.

The other problem is that Jesus says, "and shall marry another". The "Except for cases of Fornication" is referencing the whole phrase, divorce and remarriage. Now if you go this route, and believe it is ok to divorce and remarry in the case of adultery, all you need to do is screw your secretary and you can get a divorce. If you both want a divorce (as is often the case), then both agree to screw your boyfriend/girlfriend and then get your divorce. It reduces the Lord's law to a meaningless formula.

_________________
"THE LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:07 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Old World
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Protestant (Garden variety)
Name of your church: Local Parish
GaryM wrote:
TI have a quote from my "Hard Sayings of the Bible," by Davids, Bruce, Waltke, Baruch, pp. 431-435. "Is it wise to take Jesus' rulings or other practical issues and give them legislative force?...It is better, probably, to let his words stand in their uncompromising rigor as the ideal at which his followers ought to aim." p. 435


This doesn't seem a satisfactory answer, to be honest. Christ did clearly intimate that the Mosaic concessions for divorce were done away with and that He equates divorcing one's wife with adultery, a most grievous sin. Christ introduced the "fornication clause" as the only exception to this evangelical rule and I'm trying to discern the implications of such an exception.

_________________
"THE LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:56 pm
Posts: 429
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Protestant (Garden variety)
Name of your church: faith and hope salvation army
"Husbans love your wifes just as Christ loved you" Ephesians 5:25-28

On what grounds would Jesus Christ divorce His church?

Proverbs 5:15-21


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group