The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

Didn't God also chose the person who would not believe also to be his chosen through Jesus Christ?
Remember the difference between law and grace

John 7:5 "For even His own brothers did not believe in Him"

God's purpose is that we should be born again and bear His likness---thus as well as reconciling us to Himself He imparts His regenerating Spirit and equips us to live as His children

The redeeming work of Christ is related to the whole of this purpose and involves both what He does "for" us and what He can do "in" us---both are necessary.

As you know the victory Christ won for us over the power of sin does not excemp us from our own encounters with temptation
Why are we here?

This sentence could be understood in two ways:
"Didn't God also choose those who would not believe (for condemnation)"
OR
"Didn't God also choose to be His chosen through Jesus Christ even those who do not believe (but they rejected His choice.)"

Could you please rephrase your question?


I'm not at all certain how any of this is relevant to advance your argument.

Regards.

_________________
All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

Randy -- well said

btw -- you're the only other person i've seen to answer the chicken/egg argument correctly

RTCrudge

Yes, obviously the chicken came first -- That was a question in reaction to the question posed about Lazarus - which happened 1st.

Okay - God knows who will and who Won't accept His gift of salvation made possible through Jesus Christ's dying and shedding His blood for our sins.
We don't have that knowledge-- we don't know Who the elect are - born-again believers obviously ARE. So - After the fact - we know who they are - We are part of that group of the elect.
John 3:16 ' who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life.'
And we are told in Matt 28 to take the Gospel to all nations - making disciples of.
God's grace is His unmerited favor He has shown to us - Because of our sins - we deserve hell - but He showed His grace - mercy towards us by providing His gift of salvation. We accept or reject that gift. The Holy Spirit convicts a person.

A gift is accepted Not earned.

My sister and I are at the same church - same family unbringing - we Both hear the Gospel message - both are under conviction. She accepts Christ but I don't. She was ready to accept -- I wasn't AT that Time. Later on I was ready and I DID.

Sometimes I think we make something So simple - So complicated.

And those who deny this end up making silly assertions about how people can believe the Gospel without actually hearing it. I think Jim & Sue's conversation highlights the big, ugly problem with the libertarian free will view. So you think God must change His decree based on humanity's proclivities? Not from consistent monergists. Some, who are inconsistent, say that man is free to decide, but once the decision is made, are held in grace by God. Consistent monergists teach that since election is a perfect divine decree, those who are elect and come to faith will persevere in that faith to the end. Really? Ever read Genesis? Exodus? Matthew? Romans? God is always "acting in a selective way toward mankind." He chose Abraham over every other man on earth. He chose Jacob over Esau. He chose Mary over every other virgin Jewess in Israel. He chose to send Jesus to Israel and not Samaria, Phoenicia or Rome. He sent Paul to "as many as had been appointed to eternal life" (Acts 13:48), not on some random fool's errand. In fact, the biblical teaching that God chose the specific individuals who would be among the elect "before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4) is totally within God's character and revelation. So your God is the god of the deists - the "divine watchmaker" who sits back and reacts to "His awareness of the way in which man use this gift and of the ultimate conquences of their actions"? By the way, no one is saying man does not have a will, but that God allows men to act within the abilities of his nature. Since all men are dead in sins, they are not able to choose faith. As soon as their wills are regenerated, they are able to believe, and infallibly do so (even if it takes a while ).

The timing belonged to God. Sorry Sue, but for His purposes he awoke the soul of your sister and she moved before you. If you both were under conviction you both were drawn by God. You may quote John 3:16 but how does one reconcile that with Acts 13:48

Though we agree I think you believe that God knows who is chosen because He knows what choice they've made. My position is God knows who's chosen because He Himself chose them (John 15:19 & Romans 9:11-16).


Again, we agree AND disagree. You see I believe that the conviction of the Holy Spirit is God changing our nature and giving life so that we can, of our own free-will, accept that gift given from Him to us. If one has rejected that gift, again of his own free-will, it is because his nature was never truly changed and he never truly was convicted by the Holy Spirit. That person followed his fallen, dead nature and rejected the gift of God because his nature is against all things of God.
Think what you like but the choices are exclusive of each other. One or the other is Biblical but not both.... they are quite different. No, it is very simple. We want to have some control and, thus remove the clear choice of God from the equation. Rather, the picture we like is Him offering a gift and choosing us because we chose Him. Thus, God bases His choice upon the passions of men. IMHO there is nothing less Biblical than this conclusion. Scripture throughout states that we are chosen by God and that choice is for His purpose.
John 1:13 as well as other passages, which have already been stated, makes it clear that the choice was not according to the will of men.
But we so want it to...Perhaps because it better fits our desire regarding God's will.

Once again I return to the analogy I offered

My 2 cents. (It seems P-bob and I are thinking of the same 2 pennies. )

_________________
Blessings,
Randy
Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The Net Bible Online

According to the Joshua Project, 2.8 billion people living today have never heard the Gospel. Even considering the tremendous population growth of the 20th century, it is fairly safe to assume "billions" have "already died with hearing the Gospel." ...And since it is established that millions, possibly billions have died and entered eternal punishment having never even heard this Good News, how does that not mean Jesus died in vain? So man must first regenerate his dead heart in order to believe the Gospel? What in the parable of the soils leads you to the conclusion that the "soils" prepare themselves? But grace ≠ faith...Nothing in this anecdote precludes the (IMHO) biblical teaching that God first acted on this "dude" by regenerating his dead nature to enable him to "accept" (I hate that term - it is absent in the Bible and a modern interpolation). But instead of his salvation hinging on his "decision," with the correct theology of election, his salvation hinges on God alone.

Although I consider it sophistry, since it was brought up, if God's foreknowledge is perfect and infallible, then the "dude's" choice could be none other than the one he made, and is not, therefore "free" at all. He could not have chosen anything else, and his "freedom" is illusion.

Randy, I think you're right!

If it has already been determined who will be saved and who won't, why bother preaching? Why witness? Why pray for the unsaved?

Why does the Bible say that God wants all people to be saved? If it is purely up to God and nothing to do with man's choice, how can any person not become saved?

1Tim 2:3-4 (NET)
3) Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior,
4) since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9 (NET)
9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Sometimes I feel like a broken record.
1. Because Jesus our Lord commanded us to preach, witness and pray. That should be enough. But also because we have no idea who the elect are and it is still man's responsibility to believe.
2. The Bible doesn't say God wants every single person who ever lived to be saved. 1 Tim 2:3-4 and 2 Pet 3:9 have been exegeted ad nauseum in all kinds of places. "All" doesn't mean "all people who ever lived." Rather than surface level human-centered philosophical interpretation, do a little work and figure out what the passages are actually teaching. See here and here.

Strider 33 Excellent !!!!!

the Arminian view is man-centric & oozing with pride (see Randy's analogy) -- it naturally makes sense to us that we need to DO something -- that's how the flesh thinks

let it be known i appreciate your articulate responses -- God's Ways are not our ways so we need to be reminded of these tenets...often

Yes -- the two-sides of the coin. On One side -- God foreordained who would believe. He alone knows who will accept or reject. The other side of the same coin. We're told to evangelize - to spread the Gospel of salvation to Whomever / Wherever.

It's BEcause we Don't know -- that we share with All.

Why don't we simply do OUR part - share the Gospel with those we come in contact with - if the Holy Spirit leads us to go to Where ever to minister - great - go. You come across Whomever and he/ she is willing to listen and accepts. This might be the 1st exposure to Scripture - it might be the umpteenth time they've heard. So - they Do accept - so Now we know that they are one of God's elect.

My husband has a Master's Degree in Theology from many years ago. Our son-in-law grew up in the Catholic church and then accepted Christ -- through his own study of Scripture, he's been a 5 point Calvanist. My husband is more or less a 4 1/2 point one. And I, myself = God knows -- I don't -- He's the boss and I share with whomever / where ever.

My question is what is the point in preaching, why would Jesus command us to preach if those God has already chosen are going to be saved and they have no choice in the matter?

Just finished the two linked articles. Is there a better argument than them?

Theophilus -- Sometimes I've wondered Why God gives us all this info. Fore knowledge / who so ever will may come -- but, yes, I agree with you. You mentioned two linked articles. Or are you refering to your two posts? I didn't find any outside articles listed.

Sue P-bob linked to two articles which directly deals with Theo's quoted texts.

_________________
Blessings,
Randy
Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The Net Bible Online