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I think that an understanding of the term "the elect" has to involve an understanding of the original word "ecclesia". As an aside, the word "ecclesia" is the origin of modern words like "eglise" in French or "iglesia" in Spanish. It's also the origin of words like "eclectic" in English.

It might be useful to understand what, if anything, the word "ecclesia" was used to signify in first century Greek texts outside of the Christian community. It's my understanding that it was used to designate a political governing body of a local metropolitan unit, ("polis) that might correspond roughly to the term "Selectmen" in modern municipal government in the US. Analogies to the US are misleading, however. In the US, the people are sovereign. All government power is delegated to people like selectmen by the sovereign people, or by some of them. The first century may not have shared that concept, at all.

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Not all those who wander are lost.

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"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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Calvin didn't invent the unconditional election of the blessed. Scripture abounds in such references and the French divine simply followed in the footsteps of a long tradition of scriptural exegesis concerning the topic of predestination that dates back to Augustine.

That predestination and election are true Christian beliefs is uncontested since they are clearly taught in Scripture. And it logically follows that if some men, out of God's bountiful mercy, are elected to eternal life, then the others will perish in their sins. The whole of fallen mankind is a massa damnata, as Augustine aptly put it. If God does not intervene, man will only choose sin and revel in unrighteousness.

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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)

Thank you Rmiksch for your topic, "Doctrine of Election?"

Perhaps the following will be of help.

Every blessing.

Edwin.

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Reconciling free will, with predestination.

Have a look at the three verses bellow, and tell me do you think that Enoch, Noah, and Job were demonstrating free will, or not?

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him
Gen 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"

And what about the following seven verses. Why do you think that the word, "choose", is used if man is incapable of making a choice which is acceptable to the Lord, if as some say, man does not have a free will?

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Jos 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
Pro 3:31 Do not envy the oppressor, And choose none of his ways;
Pro 12:26 The righteous should choose his friends carefully, For the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Isa 7:15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 56:4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,

Oh, and by the way, why does our Lord Jesus say.

Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

If as some say, man does not have a free will?

Free will, yes, but now the other side of the coin. Our Lord Jesus who said.

Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jhn 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Jhn 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Jhn 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[fn2] have eternal life. 3:15 NU-Text omits not perish but.

Also said.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Jhn 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Mat 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
Mat 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jhn 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

Allow me to suggest a possible solution to the problem of reconciling, "Free will, with Predestination".

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I believe Scripture shows, as I have attempted to indicate with the above verses, that man not only has a free will, but is also able to exercise it in a correct way from a divine point of view, and that the Lord our God knows that such persons would, if exposed to the Gospel respond positively. For his reason therefore, He predestines them to hear the good news, and thereby get saved.

May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.

Edwin.

Quick point of order, to be clear, ἐκλεκτός (eklektos = elect, chosen etc.) and ἐκκλησία (ecclesia = church, gathering) are not related. Although we must be careful of root-words, ἐκλεκτό comes from ἐκ and λέγω, while ἐκλεκτός comes from the Greek words ἐκ and καλέω. So we make ourselves chosen? How can something like Eph 1:4-5 and 2 Thess 2:13-14 have any meaning if, in fact, it is man who makes himself a part of the elect? While it is true Jesus did say, "If you love me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15), your assertion that "It is only those who keep His commands that are his sheep" does not follow. A more correct statement would be "It is only His sheep who keep His commandments" - for no one who does not believe in Him can keep them.

Edwin, not a single verse (a mixing Old and New Covenant verses) you quoted precludes the possibility of a certain number, chosen by God, who are regenerated and are then thus able to believe. Your so-called "reconciling" is a classic Armenian theological way of dealing with the problem of upholding libertarian free will in the face of the Bible's teaching of election and predestination: God knows those who will respond positively to the Gospel. The problem, which has never been overcome, is that verses like Rom 8:29 say that God foreknows the people themselves, not their foreseen faith. In fact, your philosophical construct of God somehow arranging the Gospel-hearing situation for people whom He knows will "respond positively" to the Gospel is entirely absent from Scriptures.

Thanks. I got confused by my ignorance of Greek.



Did you mean "Arminian"?

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Not all those who wander are lost.

True, it is only the Lord's sheep who will keep His commandments. It is His sheep which "hear" and follow Him - not the other way around. They keep His commandments because they are His sheep. If God does not free the sinner from Satan's kingdom, the sinner will never "hear", will never keep the Lord's commandments.

Yup.So many people flip that verse around and make Jesus say that by believing they become His sheep. The verse says the opposite:

The Bible definitely teach that the elect have been predestined by God to eternal life Ephesians 1:3-14 Romans 8:28--33 2 Timothy 2:10 1 Peter 1:1 1 Peter 2:9
2 Thessalonians 2:13

The questian is: how is it determined whether or not any specific individual is amoung the elect?

Is it determined by an unconditional unchangeable decree of God?

Or does God offer salvation to all men and then give each individual the power to choose for himself whether to accept or reject that offer?

God desires all men to be saved 1 Thimothy 2:4

Yes, the Bible says that. But what are we to make of the fact that not all men are saved? Unless one believes in Universalism, then there would seem to be only two possibilities:

1) "All men" does not mean all men universally, but means all men in some other, more restrictive sense (e.g., men from all nations, or all of the Elect). (For an example of "all" being used in a more restrictive sense, consider Romans 5:18b "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.)"

2) "All men" does in fact mean all men universally. If this is the case then I can see only three other possibilities:
a) God is a liar and does not desire that all men be saved. (I suspect you cannot accept this possibility.)
b) God is not powerful enough to accomplish that which He desires, which is to say that He is not powerful enough to accomplish His will (for a desire to save must certainly be the same as a will to save).
c) God is powerful enough to save all men but He desires something else even more.

"Ahh, yes," says the Armenian Arminian. "Though He desires that all be saved, He values man's free will even more, and thus He will not violate man's free will in order to save him from eternal damnation."

"Ahh, yes," says the monergistic Calvinist. "Though He desires that all be saved, He values His own glory more than He desires that all men be saved, and His glory is somehow enhanced by showing mercy and grace to the Elect and by passing over others to show His wrath."

That valuing free will above salvation is a good thing, you decide. If my child wanders into the street to be hit by a car, as a parent I value that child's safety more than his free will and will yank him out of the traffic though he express his disapproval through the tantrum of all tantrums.

That God values His glory above all else is apparent in Scripture. That He is glorified in displaying His justice and wrath against sinners is shown in Scripture. That He is also glorified in saving sinners by His grace and mercy who are worthy of the same justice and wrath is also clear in Scripture.

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

This three verses are the desirable preference of election and predestination.

Answer to your question if how to determined whether or not any specific individual is among the elect is ; if you were born again John 3:3, John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.(KJV)

I think the better question is which of which of a believer is been elected and predestined?
Rome 9:11 clearly specify that God has a purpose for children being not yet born, and are not capable of doing any good and evil, to elect not by works but him that called. It was a unchangeable decree of God and give men free will to serve the Lord and evil.
God bless.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

Hi - I'm new here -- this is my first post -- isn't it true that God is the only one who knows who will accept or reject His salvation? We've been told to share the Gospel of salvation with those we come in contact with in our daily life cause We don't know who will accept or reject Him. And maybe He Does choose those whom will be saved -- but We don't know who those people are - so - we are to share with whomever.

SueD wrote:

First is warm welcome to the forum, God being Omnipotent and Omniscient powerful and knowledgeable may really know those who will accept and reject the doctrine of God and need not be because John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Cor 2:10-12 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
SueD wrote:

Ecclesiastes 11:1, 6 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

You'll get no argument from me on that, Sue. (And your first post was a good one. Welcome to the forum.)

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

Welcome to the forum. And I agree with your point. There are lots of things that God knows and that we don't. This is one of them.

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Not all those who wander are lost.