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**Moderating NOTE** This topic was split from the discussion Re: Don't need the gospel to be born again?

As far as I know no one is questioning whether or not one should use the Word as a basis. It is, rather ABOUT HOW one interprets that Word and forms their basis.
Frankly Pam, your fanciful interpretations leave me quite speechless. Indeed the whole of the Bible is truth and we must truly trust what God says through it. But we must strive to understand the context and applications the author intended and not the context we ourselves impose upon it.
Respectfully, you are not using the Word to explain the Word. You are applying one text completely out of context to another. Your Ephesians 4:9-10 passage is a prime example IMO. Contextually Paul is speaking of something entirely different than is Peter.

As pointed out by Psychobobicus, Antipater/Rick's paper is a clear and well thought exegesis of the passage in question. The meaning he proposes fits contextually and conforms to the whole of Biblical revelation. In short I agree with him on the Peter passage.

I am not a proponent of your "purgatory-like" postulation of passages which point to "sheol", "Abraham's bosom", "paradise", etc. In my humble and not-so-scholarly opinion, these interpretations are nothing more than cultural echoes emanating from Dante's Divine Comedy. If, in this day, I were to say "the pearly gates" in conversation, folks would immediately think of heaven. Again, in my not-so-scholarly opinion "Abe’s bosom", & "paradise" are nothing more than euphemisms for heaven. IMO Elijah (2 Kings 2:1-11) went up to more than the skies (Hebrew shamayim) and the Scripture does not point to his being taken to a "bosom" or to "paradise".

Now, returning to the topic at hand, it is my opinion that every OT believer (including some who may have lived during the life-time of Jesus) had a sufficient understanding of the gospel to put their trust in God and His promised Messiah (See Gal. 3:8; Romans 10:16; & Heb. 4:1-10). It is/was that faith by which they enter into the heavens no less than but equal to all believers in Messiah/Christ Jesus. I am convinced that to be away from the body is to be with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8. see also Philippians 1:21-23). It is my opinion that neither God nor His grace was hindered by time, and so He could and did therefore apply the atoning sacrifice of Christ, slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8; Eph. 1:4; Titus 1:2; & 1 Peter 1:19-20), to those OT believers so that even they could be in his presence. IMHO that is clearly shown in the gospel accounts of the transfiguration where Moses and Elijah radiant with God's glory were conversing with Jesus (Luke 9:30).

Like Obadiah I disagree strongly with your Bride-price comparison to the sacrifice of Christ. Again, you are mixing metaphore and context to make some very dangerous assumptions IMHO.

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Randy
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Randy, I know you disagree with me regarding the place of Paradise prior to Jesus’ crucifixion.

Rather than restating my understanding of what Ephesians 4:9-10 says, I decided to do what today’s researchers do: I googled. I asked: Did Jesus descend into Hades before His resurrection?

The first answer I got was this: “Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (they gave 5 Scripture sources), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham’s bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (they gave Scripture). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (they gave Scripture.) The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged...Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.” The reference for this quote is from gotquestions?org

Okay. That first article agreed with my thinking. On to the second. It’s first Scripture was 1 Pet. 3:18-20. Then after two more Scriptures the article comes to Eph. 4:8-10. This longer article finishes with this: “So, even though we cannot precisely determine where Jesus was and what He did during those three days, it seems apparent that He presented the gospel message (not to have them get saved) to those in spirit prison and possibly also to those in Abraham’s bosom.” This references Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.

Then I came to this quote in yet another article: “So, you may be asking, if the ‘place of the dead’ is still in business what happened to Abraham’s bosom? On the authority of 1 Peter 3.18-20 and Ephesians 4.8-10...His spirit descended into the abode of the saved, proclaiming His victory over death as He went to the other side (place of the dead), and took those like Lazarus (Luke 16.19-31) with Him to eternal paradise!” This was made by Seth Parr.

Randy this is a quote from your statement to me: “Respectfully, you are not using the Word to explain the Word. You are applying one text completely out of context to another. Your Ephesians 4:9-10 passage is a prime example IMO. Contextually Paul is speaking of something entirely different than is Peter."

Just in a few minutes time of looking at how other Christians view these Scriptures, the majority I read tied together those very same Scriptures that I used. Almost all I read did connect Ephesians 4:8-10 to 1 Peter 3:18-20 and came to the same conclusion that I did. Jesus descended into Hades, preached, took those who had been imprisoned in Paradise, and went to Heaven (haShamayim) which is where believers go today--we go up rather than down as they did prior to Jesus’ Atonement.

This is a Scripture that also TIES IN what I am saying: Matthew 12:40. “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” KJV

I believe it meant: 1) Jesus, 2) was in, 3) the center/heart, 4) of the earth, 5) for 3 days, and 6) for 3 nights.

I started my 5-22-11 6:06 am post with two Biblical facts:
1) Jesus said He would be in Paradise with the sinner on the cross that day--Friday.
2) On Sunday Jesus told Mary Magdalene He had NOT YET ascended to the Father.

If Jesus did take the man He was crucified by to Paradise on Friday, like the Word says, Paradise could NOT have been in Heaven because Jesus said He had not yet risen to Heaven/His Father--and Jesus made that statement on Sunday.

Never have I mentioned purgatory. Hades is not purgatory. The words Hades/Sheol is part of the text of the Bible; purgatory is not.

Randy, you can’t imagine how much I hate arguing. This is not my idea of fun. All of us who are His children are precious to the Lord. I do not want to offend you by how I word things or what I believe His Word says. So, let me give you a few of the articles on net.bible.org.

1 Peter 3:18-20 NET.Bible.org
By: admin
Jesus Descended into Hell When Jesus descended into hell, he entered not Gehenna but Hades; in other words, he really died, and it was from a genuine, not a simulated death that he rose (Acts 2:31-32). 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us briefly what Jesus did in Hades..

Christ’s Descent In To Hades.
L. S. Potwin
Adelbert College
"...Now, whatever may be true of the “Apostles’ Creed,” the Descent into Hades has sufficient New-Testament authority. The first recorded address of Peter contains twofold evidence that the Descent was believed by both speaker and hearers. In the first place, he quotes from a Psalm (xvi.) that had a shaping influence on the belief of the people respecting Hades. Further, he bases an argument and appeal for the resurrection of Christ on the certainty that he would not stay in Hades. “Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades” (Acts 2:27).
But what was Hades, and what the significance and importance of Christ’s going thither? In a somewhat recent discussion I find these words: “The Saviour was in the same state between death and resurrection as we now are after death.”1 This is, it seems to me, precisely what ought not to be said. For this ignores the whole work of Christ in Hades, and leaves them that sleep in Jesus no better off than if he had not risen. Let us put ourselves in the place of the apostles and their fellow disciples, and after we have learned the truth about Hades as it appeared in their thought and forms of statement, then we may, if we can, translate it into our own thoughts and forms of statement. Hades was the region where dwelt the souls that were under the power of death. The souls of the righteous as well as of the wicked.

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Now google is where I'd go for good Biblical exegesis!

Once again Pam, 1 Peter 3 is not exegetically speaking of that. Not only do I refer you to Antipater's work previously linked I point you to Wayne Grudem.
So too does Feinberg, Boice, MacArthur, & Criswell agree with Grudem.

I disagree with your view. There are many good believers who agree with you (one of whom I believe to be Jimd)...but not me. It is not an area I see as essential. Sorry Pam the terminology is different but the concepts are the same. If you argue for a seperate but good place in sheol/hades then you are arguing for the same thing as the purgatorial concept.

If your text naming paradise is as you say then what do you do with Luke 23:46. Was Christ in Paradise or was He in the Father's hands? Of course if paradise is a term for "heaven" then we have no issue here.

If one narrows the context and their view according to your understanding they would be compelled to agree. However, if Jesus was speaking of his resurrected (physical) body in John 20:17 then of course there is not so much a compelling case.
Pam you are (or seem to be) much more emotional about this than am I. I do not see all disagreements as bad. As a matter of fact it is through such things we challenge each other to grow. I've read the articles in Bible.org about this long before our conversation. This is not my first rodeo on this subject. I have even read those who appeal to 1 Enoch and imply that Peter is pointing to that text for support (of course I disagree with that as well). I don't think the TEXT of Peter supports this view. Further your Ephesians 4:7-10 reference is IMO simply speaking to the fact that Jesus descended to the earth (i.e. the incarnation) making the captives free (the atonement) and giving them gifts (by the Spirit to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, et. al). Therefore I stand behind what I said:

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Randy
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The concepts of Paradise and purgatory are opposite one another, assuming purgatory was actually a reality. In this supposed place of purgatory there was punishment to bring about correction until a soul was made ready to enter Paradise. Indulgences--money given to the church to move people through purgatory quicker--and prayer for the dead were a great part of the concept of purgatory. I assume you know that Augustine, whom Grudem (your source for carrying on Augustine’s beliefs) mentioned as an expert on 1 Peter 3:19-20 was a proponent of purgatory. So it seems that I don’t agree with Augustine in at least two areas.

Paradise prior to Christ’s ascension was a place where the dead went--the righteous dead. They weren’t there to be punished--as the doctrine of purgatory would assert. They were there awaiting their Deliverer to set them free. He did do exactly that. Eph. 4:8

Your reference to Abraham’s bosom and Paradise being merely euphemisms for heaven, followed by the reference of 2 Kings 2:1-11 does not compute in my understanding--but as you have pointed out, I am truly a simple person. When Elijah rose he was sitting in a chariot of fire and he ascended into the sky as was seen by Elisha as well as the group of prophets who saw him. This was no euphemism. The destination of Elijah is of some importance, though. Neither Elisha nor the prophets waiting on the other side of the Jordan River saw Elijah as he arrived in the Third Heaven.

The very definition of eupehmism would seem to be exactly backwards to what you are suggesting. The euphemism is supposed to be a less offensive or milder, or simpler substitute for a more harsh, unpleasant, or complicated word. To me Heaven seems the less offensive word. I don’t believe Abraham’s bosom and Paradise are euphemisms. They were used because they are both references to an actual place, a compartment in Hades.

2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a fiery chariot pulled by fiery horses appeared. They went between Elijah and Elisha, and Elijah went up to heaven in a windstorm. ©NET

Could we get back to something I have yet to understand from your viewpoint? You do believe that Jesus’ statement from Luke 23:43 NKJV: “And Jesus said to him [the sinner on the cross beside Jesus], ‘Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you [sinner on the cross], TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise.‘ “

After the burial of Jesus on Friday, Mary Magdalene is outside His tomb on Sunday morning. According to John 20:11-18 there was an encounter between her and Jesus. John 20:17 NKVJ: Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have NOT YET ASCENDED to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ “

From your perspective, if Jesus had not yet ascended, how did He appear in Paradise with the sinner crucified next to Him on Friday?

From my interpretation of these Scriptures this is very simple to explain. There really were two compartments in Hades. One was the place of torment for the unrighteous; the other was the place for the righteous dead and was known as Paradise and also Abraham’s bosom. As I understand the Word, Jesus and the sinner both went to Paradise, the compartment of the righteous. This was necessary because of the Matt. 12:40 Word which states. “...so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” After three days, Jesus talked to Mary M. and then led the captives to safety in Heaven, the Third Heaven, the abode of God. Jesus doing this, leaving Hades/Paradise and ascending to Heaven was the First Fruits--the first One to have done so. (Elijah didn’t die, so he never went down/descended into Hades; as you pointed out in 2 Kings, Elijah went up to Heaven--not as one coming out of the grips of death.)

Would you, in terms simple enough for me to understand, tell me how Luke 23:43, John 20:17, and Matt. 12:40 fit together from your perspective? By “fit together” I am asking that you give me a scenario that allows all three Scriptures to be Truth and still agree with your version of Jesus having gone to Paradise in Heaven on Friday. I do believe discussion is a worthwhile thing. Take just a little bit more time and explain this to me so that this discussion proves useful to my getting this theology right.

When you say it is not an area you see as essential, let me tell you why I see this as worth spending time on. I believe it is very important to rightly divide the Word of the Lord, as I am certain you would agree. To me much of this DIVIDING comes in the fact of determining what is to be taken literally and what is in some form or another merely pictures/stories/parables/metaphors/hyperbole/figure of speech/synecdoche/simile and the hundreds of other such literary devices available to a writer. If what the Word says makes sense in its literal usage, then the principles of good exegesis and hermeneutics would say to use the literal sense as its primary meaning. Has that principle changed? I read the Word as if it means what it says UNLESS there is an obvious key or clue or literary devise that makes the literal interpretation obviously not intended by the writer. That means I read the Word very literally.

God made this Word simple enough that even those of us who don’t know what exegesis or hermeneutics or synecdoche or any other such thing even means can comprehend His Bible. Being simple myself I just read it for what it says. That doesn’t always mean I am going to agree with those who can’t just accept what the Word says as it is written.

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Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

Pam,
First off: If what I've bolded and underlined above is an example of your intepretive ability, then I can see how it is you misinterpret the Bible. Nowehere did Grudem say Augustine was an "expert". Neither did I imply that I was trying to "carry on Augustine's beliefs". Just because I agree with Augustine's position/understanding of a passage does not imply that I agree with all his positions/understandings. Nor does it mean I'm carrying on his beliefs. I've not read Augustine's position on purgatory and think it (whatever it is) irrelavent to the quote from Grudem. What you've done above is made assumptions without foundation either before or while reading a text written by me quoting Grudem. Those assumptions lead you to a false conclusion regarding what I (and Grudem for that matter) was trying to do/say.
Where was it I pointed out that you are a simple person?
(bolding & underlining mine) According to your understanding of Ephesians 4:8-10, why didn't Elisha descend into the lower parts of the earth?
Here I'll try and handle both concepts (which I've underlined) that you place forward as quoted above. The Greek word for paradise (paradizo) is used 3 times in the NT. First is your Luke 23:43 passage. Second is 2 Cor. 12:4. This I find interesting for if one reads 2 Cor. 12:1-6 they will find Paul speaking of the "Third Heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2) and "paradise" (2 Cor. 12:4) as the same place. Last it is mentioned in Revelation 2:7 as the place where we find the tree of life - which is clearly heaven when one reads the context of Revelation 22:2-14. Further support for the idea of paradise being heaven is found in the fact that though the word "paradise" (Greek paradeizos) could simply mean "pleasant garden" (especially as used in the LXX of the Garden of Eden), it also frequently meant "heaven" or "a place of blessedness in the presence of God" (see Isa. 51:3; Ezek. 28:13; & Ezek 31:8-9) This also seems to be the sense in the intertestamental Jewish literature (see Joachim Jeremias, paradeisos, TDNT 5, pages 765-773).

Matthew 12:40 is Jesus speaking simply of His physical death and burial. It seems the Chief Priests and Pharisees understood what he meant according to Matthew 27:63-64. Let me be clear, Jesus died a physical death and His body was physically in the grave/tomb for 3 days (see Mat. 16:21; Mat. 17:23; & Mat. 27:40).
Luke 23:43 has a sufficient explanation above regarding "paradise".
John 20:17 is best understood IMO that Jesus, in His new physically resurrected state, had not ascended back to heaven; therefore, Mary should not cling to Jesus' body. The perfect tense of the Greek word for "ascended" (anabebeka) gives the sense "I've not yet ascended and remained" or "I am not yet in the ascended state" (The latter translation is taken from D.A. Carson's The Gospel According to John page 644).

Rodney A Whitacre, in his work John published by IVP, says on page 477,
In summary the 3 passages you asked about affirm:
Jesus really died and was in the grave 3 days Matthew 12:40.
Jesus took the thief the day they both died to "paradise" which I understand to scripturally mean "heaven" Luke 23:43.
And Jesus was telling Mary to, "Stop clinging to me I'm really here and have not yet finally ascended physically to the Father." That final ascension is noted in Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; & Acts 1:9-11.

This little area seems a bit like a back-handed swipe. Let me say that I've never said you were "simple minded". I also understand the word as it is written and try not to take it's meaning away from the context. I still contend that your "simple meaning" of Ephesians 4:8-10 and connection to 2 Peter 3:18-20 is not correct.

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Randy
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I did NOT bring up either Grudem or purgatory. You used Grudem as your reference on p. 591 of Systematic Theology which said, “The most satisfactory explanation of 1 Peter 3:19-20 seems rather to be one proposed...by Augustine.”

Given that you had used Grudem, who based his systematic theology of 1 Peter 3:19-20 on Augustine, and
Given that you had introduced purgatory into the discussion, and
Given that you had said you disagree with purgatory,
Why were you using Augustine (by way of Grudem) to prove your case? You are the one who told me that what I thought of as Paradise in Hades was actually purgatory, except that I just hadn’t name it that.

Grudem did not say, “AUGUSTINE IS AN EXPERT”, but Grudem did use Augustine’s argument, and Grudem did say it was the most satisfactory explanation. Since Grudem has written a book about theology, I would say that he holds himself up as an authority on the subject, and when he makes a statement that a particular viewpoint is the most satisfactory, I believe he intends for his reader to believe that it is his professional opinion, also. If this were a court of law and we needed an expert witness regarding Systematic Theology, would your opinion be that Grudem does or does not qualify?

Now, about your pointing out that I am a simple person who easily misunderstands or misinterprets things, read what you just underlined in the first paragraph of this post to which I am responding? I’m not going back to the others--that’s sufficient.

When I used Elijah, 2 King 2:7-13 in the chariot of fire ascending into the sky/heaven and said he was seen by Elisha as well as the group of prophets who saw him, you replied, “According to your understanding of Ephesians 4:8-10, why didn’t Elisha descend into the lower parts of the earth?”

Elisha was standing at the Jordan River watching as his mentor was taken up ALIVE into Heaven. According to my understanding, Elisha was alive, watching, along with 50 other prophets; the only people who go into Hades/Paradise are dead. Ditto, Elijah. He also was alive.

Elisha did eventually die. After having performed double the miracles that Elijah did, Elisha died. We know that because 2 Kings 13:20-21 recounts the event. Elisha’s dead bones were in a tomb, a dead man was thrown in on top of them, and the dead man jumped up alive.

Elisha did go to Heaven with Jesus at some point from the time of Jesus’ crucifixion and Sunday’s resurrection when Ephesians talks about Jesus taking the captives from Hades/Paradise and leading them to Heaven. But that occurred centuries after Elisha watched Elijah being taken up alive into Heaven.

The Third Heaven and Paradise ARE the same place NOW. I agree with Paul that Paradise is no longer in Hades. I don’t agree with you that it never was.

About your summary of the 3 passages:

You state that Jesus died and was in the grave 3 days. Matt. 12:40. That is an end-around answer. We all know His Body was in the grave. We also know that we are NOT our body. When we die today we go to Heaven because of Jesus’ victory over death, but our body stays in the grave. Until Jesus resurrected, His body was in the grave. That is not the question. Every evil person who died, including the rich man in Hades/Place of Torment, had a dead body in the grave--which is still there as dust and ashes--and a soul which was in Hades/Place of Torment. Every Christian who has died since Jesus led the victory parade into Heaven has a body/dust/ashes somewhere--a coffin, an urn, scattered on the ground--somewhere on earth. That Christian is now at Home with the Father--since the Resurrection. “We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 2 Cor. 5:8 NKJV The real US is at Home with the Lord. The body/dust/ashes which will come out of the grave at Rapture are still there awaiting the Lord’s coming in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).

Luke 23:43 you say that Jesus took the thief to Paradise, which you understand as Heaven (but which I understand as the bowels of the earth).

You never do solve the dilemma. Jesus tells Mary M. that He has not yet ascended to the Father. He make this statement three days after He had promised the repentant sinner on the cross that He would take Him to Paradise that very day--Friday. It was Friday, then Saturday, then Sunday--and still Jesus had not been to Heaven or to the Father.

Your quote from Whitacre talks about WHY Jesus did not want Mary M to touch Him. The quote you use is making my point, not yours. This is what Whitacre says, 'I [Jesus] would be saying, “You don’t have to continue to touch me since (gar) I have not yet ascended to the Father - I am really here.'..."Such clinging may suggest she is not only trying to assure herself that he is really there, but expressing her desire that he not leave again. [1] In this case, Jesus lets her know that she must not try to restrict him, for he has not yet ascended to the Father.”

This “again” is not “leave for Heaven again”, but leave her again. She last saw Jesus being taken off the cross, and being readied for burial. She has just been in the empty tomb and seen His Body missing from the grave; and now He was talking with her.

I believe we have to accept Jesus’ Word on the subject. He said He had not yet ascended to the Father. If Paradise was in Heaven at the time of Jesus’ death, the only way He could have been with the thief in Paradise would have been to do it in Heaven--the very thing Jesus Himself said He has not done.

I’m going over the top of the word limit, so I’m stopping. Talk to you later.

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We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

The ascension to which Jesus referred (in Matthew as elsewhere) only has relevance as his bodily ascension. And so Jesus had not ascended to the Father yet, because he had just risen bodily from the dead and would stay for a time to teach his disciples before ascending to the Father in his resurrected state. You seemed to miss that point Pam. In other words, Jesus would seem to be saying to the thief on the cross that they would enter paradise (i.e., "heaven") that very day they died, but that did not mean they would enter it in their resurrected and therefore ascended state...only that they would be present there awaiting the final state of the resurrection. This gives the punch to why we also do not simply long for heaven, but for the resurrection ourselves. The "real" us is not simply a disembodied us, but the resurrected us with bodies remade and changed to his glorious body.

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I think you are referring to this postI guess I stepped in it there, didn't I? I did say "This is not a hill I wish to die on." By that I meant that I am fuzzy on the issue. And, were I crystal clear on the issue, as Randy stated, it is certainly not an essential issue of faith. But, I shall have to go back and read the esteemed Antipater's article in order to educate myself. My son "stole" my Grudem's Systematic Theology so I have not been able to reference it and it is not an issue I have studied in depth.

However, having been raised Catholic, I would disagree that Purgatory is anything akin to the concept of "Abraham's Bosom" being a temporary place to await the opening of heaven until Christ's death. As I believe Pam pointed out, according to Catholic teaching, Purgatory is a place of purging, suffering to burn off (or atone) for ones smaller sins and faults. The idea of Abraham's Bosom that I am familiar with has no hint of punishment or self-atonement associated with it, as is seen in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

All of which has no bearing on the question of the other thread as to whether OT saints were saved and whether they were born again and whether that occurred with or without hearing the gospel.

Regards.

Regards.

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You are correct, I did. I said your belief in this "paradise" is the same thing as purgatory. (I guess that being purged point being raised by Jim is a considerable difference but, other than that, what is the difference?) I can give a little in this. I also mentioned Dr. Grudem because I believe he has a good argument.

Neither I nor Grudem were using Augustine to prove anything. I quoted from Grudem's argument in which he said Notice in this statement that Grudem does not say "Augustine is an Expert." (This reveals a small mistake in your hermeneutic) Notice that Grudem does say that Augustine does offer the most satifactory explanation of 1 Peter 3:19-20 but "not really defended" (by Augustine). I was not using Augustine by way of anyone to prove anything. I quoted Grudem and his argument which I believe to be a solid one. BTW Grudem did not base his Theology of 1 Peter on Augustine - he based it on his own argument. Notice that in that same post I first referred you to Antipater's link. In his paper Rick/antipater also quoted from Grudem's work. Possibly because Grudems work has some merit. Once again I point out your faulty assumptions which lead to a bad hermeneutical understanding of what is being written.
Read Grudem's quote again. He did not use Augustine's argument. In fact he stated that Augustine proposed the most satisfactory explanation but not really defended (by Augustine). Not really defended means contextually in Grudem's work that Augustine did not make an argument for what Augustine proposed in the case being discussed.
First Dr. Grudem's work is very good IMHO. Every chapter is well defended and, according to his work, he sees the Bible as an authority and not necessarily himself. He does give a very well defended professional opinion. I'm not sure whay you're asking the "court of law" question but i think my answer is good enough.

I never said you were a "simple person" nor did I imply it. What you infer I cannot help.

The Bible clearly and simply says Elijah went to heaven. I guess your "simple meaning" argument only applies to where you like it to. Evidentally it does not apply in the text of 2 Kings 2:1-11. I'm not sure what end I'm around but Jesus is saying he will be in the grave 3 days. He's in no way saying he'll be in "paradise", "Abe's Bosom", nor some "lower earth". Again, according to Mat. 27:63-64 his audience got it.
First, it's obvious you've not thought about this geologically. Second, the word is not used with that meaning and there is easy precedent which points to the meaning being "heaven". Once again your "most simple meaning" argument seems to not apply in this case.
Really???? Please tell me what does the words "Touching", "clinging", and the phrase "continue to touch me" mean & imply?? There's not a dilemma except one of your own making. Each passage has the meaning that is there and, IMO, as I've explained it. Your dilemma ariises from taking passages out of context and applying to them meaning that was never intended in the first place.

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Randy
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i haven't had time to examine this thread -- hopefully this weekend -- brevity is always appreciated in posts

can anyone concisely state what God's Purpose was for Abraham's Bosom, what happened to it, & when?

thanks

Good morning, everyone. Paco, I would be glad to do as you suggest, but you might want to get the other posters’ version also. I just don’t have the words available to do this today. I had already prepared the response to Antipater’s previous post.

Antipater, I have read your post and have a question. Do you believe that Jesus fulfilled every prophecy written about Him?

Since the obvious answer is YES, how and when and in what form was He when He fulfilled Matthew 12:38-42? “...For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

The following is what I just can’t make fit with the way you are presenting it. If as you say Jesus went to Heaven/Paradise with the repentant sinner--He was there in Spirit and soul, since His Body was still in the grave.

The ascended/descended Scripture from Ephesians 4:8-10 shows me two things pertinent to our discussion.

First, Christ left Heaven and by the Holy Spirit was placed into Mary’s womb. He descended from Heaven as the first step of coming to earth as our propitiation. When He descended from Heaven He didn’t throw away His Spirit nor His position in the Godhood . We know He was both fully God and fully Man on earth. He descended, not as a Body, yet He was Jesus. He never quit being Jesus. So when you say the ascension was only about His Body, I would disagree. Had Jesus returned to Heaven prior to meeting Mary M. his John 20:17 statement to her would be highly misleading. You are saying that Jesus and the repentant thief were present IN Heaven but were not ASCENDED to Heaven. ἀναβαίνω means to go up, to take up, to rise, to be borne up, to enter, etc. In order to be IN Heaven we must leave the earth and ASCEND to Heaven.

John 3:1-13 is also talking about the ascended/descended issue. John 3:3 says, “...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Being “born again” was not possible until Jesus came to earth and made a way for us to live eternally with Him. Born again is mentioned only three times in the entire Bible--John 3:3, 7 and 1 Peter 1:23. Until Jesus paid the price at Calvary, man was lost. However, until Jesus came and made it possible for man to be born again, the Word says they were not allowed to or were unable to see the Kingdom of God. God’s Kingdom--His Throne, His Temple--was in the Third Heaven. If mankind couldn’t see it until they were born again, then Paradise could not have been there until after Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection.

1 Peter 1:18-19: “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; but with the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST, as a Lamb without blemish and without spot.” Until that precious blood of Christ was offered as the one eternal Atonement for man’s sins, being born again was impossible. I’m not saying that God didn’t know who was in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the beginning of the world. I am saying that until the Atonement occurred, being born again didn’t occur.

Before I go on to the second point, let me address what you were saying about me missing the point of what the “real us” is. When a Christian dies, his bones are in the grave. Those bones are not aware of what is happening to them. Those bones don’t agonize as they experience the inevitable decay, the worms, the return to dust and ashes. When I go to the graves of my loved ones, I don’t look down and think they are there. We, the part that lived inside our bodies, have either ascended to Heaven and are with the Lord, or have descended to Hades/Place of Torment. That is what I am saying when I say the real us is no longer present in the grave.

Second, for Matthew 12:38-42 to have been fulfilled, Jesus had to have been in Hades for three days. Hades/Sheol is not a fantasy; it is a geographical reality at the Center of the earth, which thanks to Jesus, no Christian will ever have to experience. Any time the geographical direction of Hades was mentioned in the Bible it was always DOWN to Hades/Sheol. The Scripture says that Jesus led the captives captive as He defeated Hades. I don’t believe we have a second chance to get our lives right with God. Those who lived wicked lives on the earth were not going to be led in a victory parade up to the glories of Heaven. However, those who had been waiting with Abraham and Lazarus, and other righteous dead on the Paradise side of Hades were those to whom Jesus preached and those whom He led to Heaven.

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Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

Can anyone present Scripture stating that anyone goes to heaven when they die?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

Are you proposing that we are in the Kingdom of Heaven now and the the Kingdom of Heaven is within/among us?

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

I agree with Pam.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7