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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:00 am 
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Hi Theology forums.

I got a few questions concerning the Doctrine of PotS. I looked at some of the top men on the subject John F. MacArthur, John Calvin, John Piper and John Gill, just to name a few (funny how all there names are John.) Anyways I read a lot of their materials on the subject and then I also read what some people here in the forums thought about it by reading through older threads. I came to a conclusion that we can lose our salvation but that it's almost near to impossible.

So I was wondering,
1.) What are some good reading materials on this doctrine?
2.) Why can't we lose our salvation?
3.) Why can we lose our salvation?
4.) Is Hebrews 6:4-8 even talking about salvation? (maybe I should take this question to Bible discussions.)

In advance, thanks for all your comments, questions and answers.

Blessings,
32k


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Since no one has responded, I will.

32k wrote:
1.) What are some good reading materials on this doctrine?

Good reading on the topic? How about the Gospel of John?

John 6:37-38 37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Context (NET)


John 10:2-9 2 The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him, because they do not recognize the stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. 7 So Jesus said to them again, “I tell you the solemn truth, I am the door for the sheep. 8 All who came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will come in and go out, and find pasture. Context (NET)
John 10:24-29 24 The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus replied, “I told you and you do not believe. The deeds I do in my Father’s name testify about me. 26 But you refuse to believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. Context (NET)


Quote:
John 17
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 6"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7"Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.


Quote:
2.) Why can't we lose our salvation?

If we are His sheep, we are secure. He promises to accomplish the Father's will and the Father's will is for Him to save all those given to Him by the Father.

32k wrote:
3.) Why can we lose our salvation?

If left up to us in whole or even in the tiniest little part, we most certainly would. Praise to God that it is not left in our sorry hands.

32k wrote:
4.) Is Hebrews 6:4-8 even talking about salvation? (maybe I should take this question to Bible discussions.)


Many warnings are given in Scripture to men in order that they may avoid the perils of hell. Those warnings themselves are part of God's grace which keep His sheep. Those that heed God's warnings will be saved, those that do not will not be. His sheep, you can be sure, will heed the warnings. Those who are not His sheep will not. Space does not permit me to comment much on Hebrews 6. But here is an example of a warning that fell on deaf ears because it was given to those who were not given by the Father to Christ for salvation:
Quote:
John 8
19So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."

37"I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." 39They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father " Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41You are doing the deeds of your father " They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me."

Regards.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Thanks Jim, I have a question concerning this statement you made:

Quote:
If left up to us in whole or even in the tiniest little part, we most certainly would. Praise to God that it is not left in our sorry hands.

Isn't it left in our hands? Why then does Paul say to work out our salvation in Philipians?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Ahh, but the verse ends mid-sentence, does it not? (The verse numbers were added long after Paul wrote his letter). The whole sentence says:
Quote:
Philippians 2:12-13
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Paul also tells us:
Quote:
Galatians 3:1-3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
and this:
Quote:
Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
And this:
Quote:
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The author of Hebrews goes on to tell us that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith:
Quote:
Hebrews 12:1-2
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So, the faith that we need for salvation is not a faith that we can generate, or a faith that we, in our own ability, can sustain. It is a faith that comes from God and is imparted to us at regeneration. It is a faith authored and perfected by the Lord Himself. But, though it comes from Him, we still are the ones that must believe. Therefore the Scriptures exhort us to believe, for that is the only way to obtain salvation.

Regards.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:13 pm 
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32k wrote:
I came to a conclusion that we can lose our salvation but that it's almost near to impossible.

So I was wondering,
1.) What are some good reading materials on this doctrine?
2.) Why can't we lose our salvation?
3.) Why can we lose our salvation?
4.) Is Hebrews 6:4-8 even talking about salvation? (maybe I should take this question to Bible discussions.)

Blessings,
32k


1. I don't know any special books.

2. If we follow our Lord Jesus Christ willingly - despite our mistakes and faults - we can't get lost, because noone can rob us out of His hand.
John 10:28-29

3. Mature, god-experienced Christians, who have tasted heaven and the forces of the coming world, can lose salvation, if they tread upon the Lord Jesus Christ willingly and light-mindedly. But not new-born Christians who are not familiar with the ways of the Lord yet, and commit some ugly sins, because they haven't laid aside the old Adam yet. There is a difference.
As far as I know there are only very, very few mature Christians who do such an evil thing.

4. Referring to what you can lose, the text speaks in my opinion about salvation.
Referring to who is meant, it speaks about those, who have already experienced a deep relationship with the most high God, Jesus Christ. A life of constant spiritual blessings (not materially in the first place), deep insights into the Word, which others can't get, the forces of the coming world operating in their lives ... if those tread upon the Lord - what a terrible thing. I don't want to think of it.


frenzy


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:19 pm 
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I like this take:

"We are not sinners because we sin--
We sin because we are sinners...."

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:44 am 
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Good points Jim, Thanks for clearing that up.
Jimd wrote:
So, the faith that we need for salvation is not a faith that we can generate, or a faith that we, in our own ability, can sustain. It is a faith that comes from God and is imparted to us at regeneration. It is a faith authored and perfected by the Lord Himself. But, though it comes from Him, we still are the ones that must believe. Therefore the Scriptures exhort us to believe, for that is the only way to obtain salvation.

Regards.

It seems to me that you believe we can loose our salvation. Since endurance is necessary on our part. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Matt. 10:22b (ESV)


Last edited by guykickinit on Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Edited by Moderator;Changed font color to black as per COC#12


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Apparently I haven't cleared things up at all, for I do not believe one who is truly born again can lose his salvation. Yes, I believe that one must endure to the end to obtain salvation but, as I stated in my previous post, faith is authored and perfected by God, not by man. Therefore, though I must do it, it is certain that I will do it, since it is His Spirit at work within me accomplishing it. That is why I said in my first post on 11/4/10, "If left up to us in whole or even in the tiniest little part, we most certainly would."

Jesus has stated that He came to do the will of the Father, whose will it is that all those sheep whom the Father has given to the Son will be saved. Now, it is necessary to endure to the end in the faith in order to obtain that salvation, as Matthew 10:22 (and other verses) shows. Therefore, if we see one who makes a profession of faith but never shows evidence of the new birth, I would conclude that he has not been reborn. Likewise, if we someone that, for a time, seems to give evidence of rebirth, but subsequently walks away from the faith and denies Christ, I cannot conclude that person will be saved. I John 2:19 informs us that that person's "going out" proves that they were never really of us:
Quote:
19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Hope that clears things up, at least as to my own thoughts on the subject. It appears from this and other postings that you have made it is something you are currently working through in your understanding of your faith. May God's Spirit bring you to a correct knowledge of the truth.

Regards.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:30 pm 
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32k wrote:
Hi Theology forums.

I got a few questions concerning the Doctrine of PotS. I looked at some of the top men on the subject John F. MacArthur, John Calvin, John Piper and John Gill, just to name a few (funny how all there names are John.) Anyways I read a lot of their materials on the subject and then I also read what some people here in the forums thought about it by reading through older threads. I came to a conclusion that we can lose our salvation but that it's almost near to impossible.

So I was wondering,
1.) What are some good reading materials on this doctrine?
2.) Why can't we lose our salvation?
3.) Why can we lose our salvation?
4.) Is Hebrews 6:4-8 even talking about salvation? (maybe I should take this question to Bible discussions.)

In advance, thanks for all your comments, questions and answers.

Blessings,
32k


1. These books I would suggest you look at: H. A. Ironside, Eternal Security, Thomas R. Schreiner, Run to Win the Prize, and G. C. Berkouwer, Faith and Perseverance.

2. We cannot because there are many passages that state that we cannot fall from God's gracious hands. For example: John 6:37-39.

3. See above.

4. I do. Those who fall away - though having experiences that could be deemed as conversion experiences - were never truly saved in the first place.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:12 pm 
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32k wrote:
It seems to me that you believe we can loose our salvation. Since endurance is necessary on our part. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Matt. 10:22b (ESV)


Perhaps a simpler way to answer this would be, no; "those who endure" validate those that are true and that truth is evidenced by their fruits.

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Last edited by guykickinit on Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:21 am 
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Jimd wrote:
Jesus has stated that He came to do the will of the Father, whose will it is that all those sheep whom the Father has given to the Son will be saved.

The rest of the verse sates that none can snatch the sheep from the Father's hand. Of course He never mentions that we can't choose to stop being saved. So it would seem that we have "power", for lack of a better word, to choose to commit apostasy.

Quote:
Now, it is necessary to endure to the end in the faith in order to obtain that salvation, as Matthew 10:22 (and other verses) shows. Therefore, if we see one who makes a profession of faith but never shows evidence of the new birth, I would conclude that he has not been reborn.

What do you consider as evidence of the new birth?

Quote:
Hope that clears things up, at least as to my own thoughts on the subject. It appears from this and other postings that you have made it is something you are currently working through in your understanding of your faith. May God's Spirit bring you to a correct knowledge of the truth.

Regards.

You've figured me out :)

Yes, it sure does clear up things. Thanks for your responses.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:41 am 
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Niemand3D wrote:
32k wrote:
It seems to me that you believe we can loose our salvation. Since endurance is necessary on our part. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Matt. 10:22b (ESV)


Perhaps a simpler way to answer this would be, no; "those who endure" validate those that are true and that truth is evidenced by their fruits.

My brother, only those that persevere to the end will be saved.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:49 pm 
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32k wrote:
What do you consider as evidence of the new birth?

Quote:
John 15:8
By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Quote:
Romans 6:22
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
"Derive your benefit" = "have your fruit". So the fruit which proves that we are His disciples is sanctification.

Regards.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:40 pm 
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32k wrote:
My brother, only those that persevere to the end will be saved.


I see no dispute in your comment. I agree. Instead, I was merely pointing out that those that persevere are those that bear fruit exclusively (in Christ).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Hi guys,

John 15 talks about those who don't abide being thrown into the fire. Does this mean that truly saved people can fall away?


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