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Hi Theology forums.

I got a few questions concerning the Doctrine of PotS. I looked at some of the top men on the subject John F. MacArthur, John Calvin, John Piper and John Gill, just to name a few (funny how all there names are John.) Anyways I read a lot of their materials on the subject and then I also read what some people here in the forums thought about it by reading through older threads. I came to a conclusion that we can lose our salvation but that it's almost near to impossible.

So I was wondering,
1.) What are some good reading materials on this doctrine?
2.) Why can't we lose our salvation?
3.) Why can we lose our salvation?
4.) Is Hebrews 6:4-8 even talking about salvation? (maybe I should take this question to Bible discussions.)

In advance, thanks for all your comments, questions and answers.

Blessings,
32k

Since no one has responded, I will.


Good reading on the topic? How about the Gospel of John?

John 6:37-38 37 Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Context (NET)

John 10:2-9 2 The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him, because they do not recognize the stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. 7 So Jesus said to them again, “I tell you the solemn truth, I am the door for the sheep. 8 All who came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will come in and go out, and find pasture. Context (NET)

John 10:24-29 24 The Jewish leaders surrounded him and asked, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus replied, “I told you and you do not believe. The deeds I do in my Father’s name testify about me. 26 But you refuse to believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. Context (NET)

If we are His sheep, we are secure. He promises to accomplish the Father's will and the Father's will is for Him to save all those given to Him by the Father.


If left up to us in whole or even in the tiniest little part, we most certainly would. Praise to God that it is not left in our sorry hands.



Many warnings are given in Scripture to men in order that they may avoid the perils of hell. Those warnings themselves are part of God's grace which keep His sheep. Those that heed God's warnings will be saved, those that do not will not be. His sheep, you can be sure, will heed the warnings. Those who are not His sheep will not. Space does not permit me to comment much on Hebrews 6. But here is an example of a warning that fell on deaf ears because it was given to those who were not given by the Father to Christ for salvation:

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

Thanks Jim, I have a question concerning this statement you made:


Isn't it left in our hands? Why then does Paul say to work out our salvation in Philipians?

Ahh, but the verse ends mid-sentence, does it not? (The verse numbers were added long after Paul wrote his letter). The whole sentence says:

Paul also tells us:and this:And this:

The author of Hebrews goes on to tell us that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith:

So, the faith that we need for salvation is not a faith that we can generate, or a faith that we, in our own ability, can sustain. It is a faith that comes from God and is imparted to us at regeneration. It is a faith authored and perfected by the Lord Himself. But, though it comes from Him, we still are the ones that must believe. Therefore the Scriptures exhort us to believe, for that is the only way to obtain salvation.

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

1. I don't know any special books.

2. If we follow our Lord Jesus Christ willingly - despite our mistakes and faults - we can't get lost, because noone can rob us out of His hand.
John 10:28-29

3. Mature, god-experienced Christians, who have tasted heaven and the forces of the coming world, can lose salvation, if they tread upon the Lord Jesus Christ willingly and light-mindedly. But not new-born Christians who are not familiar with the ways of the Lord yet, and commit some ugly sins, because they haven't laid aside the old Adam yet. There is a difference.
As far as I know there are only very, very few mature Christians who do such an evil thing.

4. Referring to what you can lose, the text speaks in my opinion about salvation.
Referring to who is meant, it speaks about those, who have already experienced a deep relationship with the most high God, Jesus Christ. A life of constant spiritual blessings (not materially in the first place), deep insights into the Word, which others can't get, the forces of the coming world operating in their lives ... if those tread upon the Lord - what a terrible thing. I don't want to think of it.


frenzy

I like this take:

"We are not sinners because we sin--
We sin because we are sinners...."

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Good points Jim, Thanks for clearing that up.

It seems to me that you believe we can loose our salvation. Since endurance is necessary on our part. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Matt. 10:22b (ESV)

Apparently I haven't cleared things up at all, for I do not believe one who is truly born again can lose his salvation. Yes, I believe that one must endure to the end to obtain salvation but, as I stated in my previous post, faith is authored and perfected by God, not by man. Therefore, though I must do it, it is certain that I will do it, since it is His Spirit at work within me accomplishing it. That is why I said in my first post on 11/4/10, "If left up to us in whole or even in the tiniest little part, we most certainly would."

Jesus has stated that He came to do the will of the Father, whose will it is that all those sheep whom the Father has given to the Son will be saved. Now, it is necessary to endure to the end in the faith in order to obtain that salvation, as Matthew 10:22 (and other verses) shows. Therefore, if we see one who makes a profession of faith but never shows evidence of the new birth, I would conclude that he has not been reborn. Likewise, if we someone that, for a time, seems to give evidence of rebirth, but subsequently walks away from the faith and denies Christ, I cannot conclude that person will be saved. I John 2:19 informs us that that person's "going out" proves that they were never really of us:

Hope that clears things up, at least as to my own thoughts on the subject. It appears from this and other postings that you have made it is something you are currently working through in your understanding of your faith. May God's Spirit bring you to a correct knowledge of the truth.

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

1. These books I would suggest you look at: H. A. Ironside, Eternal Security, Thomas R. Schreiner, Run to Win the Prize, and G. C. Berkouwer, Faith and Perseverance.

2. We cannot because there are many passages that state that we cannot fall from God's gracious hands. For example: John 6:37-39.

3. See above.

4. I do. Those who fall away - though having experiences that could be deemed as conversion experiences - were never truly saved in the first place.

Perhaps a simpler way to answer this would be, no; "those who endure" validate those that are true and that truth is evidenced by their fruits.

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"I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had no where else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for the day." ~Abraham Lincoln

The rest of the verse sates that none can snatch the sheep from the Father's hand. Of course He never mentions that we can't choose to stop being saved. So it would seem that we have "power", for lack of a better word, to choose to commit apostasy.


What do you consider as evidence of the new birth?


You've figured me out

Yes, it sure does clear up things. Thanks for your responses.

My brother, only those that persevere to the end will be saved.

"Derive your benefit" = "have your fruit". So the fruit which proves that we are His disciples is sanctification.

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

I see no dispute in your comment. I agree. Instead, I was merely pointing out that those that persevere are those that bear fruit exclusively (in Christ).

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"I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had no where else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for the day." ~Abraham Lincoln

Hi guys,

John 15 talks about those who don't abide being thrown into the fire. Does this mean that truly saved people can fall away?