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I think it's much easier; a disciple is a follower of Christ, A pupil of Christ.
We all remember from the stories that the 12 were constantly messing up, getting into arguments, doubting, yet they persevered in following Jesus ever being taught by Jesus, always learning.
I am glad that the disciples weren't anything other than who they were, because if they were all straight arrows that got it right all the time, I would be in a world of hurt. They have shown me that even I, with all my errors, can also be a disciple.

So, here's to discipleship!! Woohoo
Have a blessed Wednesday.
Robert

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My definition of discipleship or disciple does not include any notion of perfectionism. I also acknowledge that true believers struggle with sin and temptation during their Christian walk. They even sin grievously and incur God's chastising judgment. That is why true believers can even fall into scandalous sins like murder, theft, adultery, divorce, etc. However, a true believer does not make a practice of sinning. It is not his or her way of life. This is not my own personal view but the views of the great past Reformation scholars like Luther, Calvin, Bunyan, Edwards, Spurgeon, etc. Perfection only comes in glory but progress in sanctification is a present reality.

I appreciate the clarification, Themelios, but I think that Matthew 10:1 and Matthew 11:1 (among other passages) make it clear that Judas Iscariot was one of the Lord's disciples. Yet he did not persevere to the end. But setting aside that example, it remains that it cannot be said of anyone that he or she is one who endures to the end until they have actually done so. Since I don't know whether or not you will endure to the end, I cannot (by your definition) call you (or anyone alive in the world today) a disciple. Do you see the problem?

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Gideon, I would disagree with your assessment that Judas Iscariot was ever a true disciple by virtue of his inclusion in the listing of disciples in the gospels. Yes, he was one called a disciple because he was one outwardly. All of the other disciples believed he was a disciple. He fooled all those around him, but he did not fool Jesus, even though he was picked as a "disciple." Jesus shows that in His references to Judas in John 13:10-11, 18-19, 21-27 and elsewhere.

Jesus said in John 10:27-29:How could Judas have perished if he were being held in the hands of Jesus and of His Father?

Jesus prayed in John 17:12"Son of perdition" is translated "the one destined for destruction" in the NET Bible.

But John tells us in his epistle:So in my estimation, Judas could not have been reborn. His actions in betraying Jesus do not prove to us that a real believer can ever fall away, but that he was never a real believer, never born again by the Spirit.

Maybe Themelios should have posed his question as "Are only true disciples saved?" for this discussion, but Judas does not, in my mind, prove or disprove anything with regard to the original proposition.

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

Jim, you can make the case that Judas Iscariot was not a "true" disciple, but the Bible plainly identifies him as a "disciple." In fact, what you really seem to be arguing for is the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." I think that discussion is distinct from the topic here and so would best be pursued in a different thread. A distinction between a "disciple" and a "true disciple," however valid that may be, nevertheless fails to solve the problem that I observed with Themelios' definition of the term "disciple." If we substitute the term "true disciple," it remains that we cannot identify those who endure to the end until they have actually done that. So according to the proposed definition, no one could be considered a disciple, or a "true" disciple, during this lifetime.

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Gideon, once upon a time I would have stated that I believe in "Once saved, always saved," but I would never couch my belief in those terms today. It seems to me that OSAS is a perversion of the "P" in "TULIP" (Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable grace, Perserverance (or Preservation) of the saints, for those reading who may not know to what I refer) that easily leads to antinomianism. I fully believe that the perseverance of the saints is taught in Scripture, but that is not in view in my answer above, except as proof that Judas could not have been a true disciple because the first prerequisite of being a true disciple is that one must be born again (in my view anyway, if not in Themelios' view.) If that is true then Judas could not have been a true disciple if he perished , since the very act of his perishing proves that he was never born again.

Without regard to the question of the proper definition of "disciple", the question is, can one who never shows any mark of sanctification be saved? I think that is what the OP is all about. My answer is that some evidence of sanctification will be present in all true believers. One cannot profess Christ as Savior and have the Holy Spirit indwelling within and it have no impact on his life. Else what can passages such as Matthew 7:16-23, Romans 8:22, James 2:21-23 and others possible mean?

This, I think, puts me at odds with most professing OSAS.

Regards.

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Applying that logic, we could not say anyone was a believer either. I think this line of reasoning is a little of a red herring. It is also interesting to me that you would tell Jim that his statements about perseverance are off-topic after you brought up perseverance yourself.

I agree with Themelios' description of disciples, and that it was the view of the reformers. Jesus made it plainly clear that His disciples must obey His commandments. In John 14:21 He said, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." If you call yourself a believer, but refuse to be a disciple (that is, keep his commandments) are you really a believer? I think the NT makes it clear that the answer is no. Paul and John both said that a life characterized by sin, rather than avoidance of sin, demonstrates an unbeliever. Are there extreme examples that don't fall under that? Yes. The thief was mentioned. Jesus knew His heart and knew that he truly believed.

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

Call me lame but, what did a red herring do to deserve such a reference? I haven't been able to figure that out. Poor fish. I've heard of a can of worms... Is a red herring worse?
Sorry, like I said, I can be lame sometimes.

Peace be with you.
Robert

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I think its called that because a red herring is visually and odorously distracting - so an argument that is meant to distract from the topic being argued is named after it. Just my opinion though.

True, but I'm not arguing for the assumption which leads to that conclusion.

Actually, it was Themelios who brought up the topic of perseverance in his definition of a disciple, and it was to that I was responding. I mistakenly thought Jim was launching into a conversation about OSAS. (My apologies, Jim.)

In fact I agree with you, Jim, and Themelios that a disciple is expected to obey Christ's commands (even though he may fail to do so perfectly) and that he must exhibit the fruits of repentance and faith. But saying that a disciple necessarily endures to the end, while theologically supported by such texts as John 8:31-32, IMO makes it practically impossible to call any living person a disciple without making assumptions about that individual's future course and ultimate destiny. But then, perhaps such assumptions are permitted.

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What Gideon said!!!

By our fruits we will be known. If our lives match our profession/confession of Christ Jesus, it should be assumable that we shall stand firm to the end.

Isn't God Great!?
Robert

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As has been mentioned, this seems to be a re-hash of the Lordship salvation thread. How about some new ways of examining the issue?

Lordship Salvation... eeew! Carding for salvation.

Free Grace Reward Seeking... ugh! So blatantly performance driven.

What about just DWJD?

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All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

Gideon, just for clarification, do I take it from you that you reject the doctrine of eternal security/OSAS? I noticed below your avatar that you identify yourself as a Charismatic (they usually reject Calvinism or eternal security).

Yes, Jimd, that is what I was getting at in my original post. Thanks for clarifying.

Footwasher, if you reject lordship salvation and free grace salvation what is your position on this matter?