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Predestination as found in the Bible and in its best known expositor, John Calvin, is a controversial doctrine primarily because it is so often misunderstood as fatalism or determinism. In succinct and clear language, the book Evil, Anger, and God takes a look at predestination in Scripture and in John Calvin in a way that precludes both fatalism and determinism,

What follows is from Evil, Anger, and God. See if it resonates with you as much as it does with me.

Predestination in Scripture

Scripture teaches predestination both explicitly (using the word) and implicitly (using equivalents). Two major passages speak of predestination explicitly:

God "predestined [people] to be adopted as his children" according to "his will and pleasure" as a "gracious gift" (Ephesians 1:5 REB).

God "predestined [people] to be conformed to the image of his Son," and "those whom [God] predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified" (Romans 8:29 30).

Other passages describe predestination implicitly, including these three:

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father." Those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe, because [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 6:65; 12:37 40 abr).

Paul told the Romans that some were "the elect [or called]" but "the rest were hardened" for "God gave them a sluggish [or insensible] spirit" (Romans 11:7-8).

Peter wrote that those who "disobey" do so "as they were destined [by God] to do" (1 Peter 2:8).

This is biblical predestination in brief. God is portrayed as predestining some people for a good destiny and predestining others for an evil destiny, as he operatively wills. Now, let's see how John Calvin elucidates predestination.

Predestination in Calvin

John Calvin's writing about predestination combined fact and faith.

"In actual fact, the covenant of life is not preached equally among all men, and among those to whom it is preached,
it does not gain the same acceptance" (3.21.1).

"All are called to repentance and faith by outward preaching, yet the spirit of repentance and faith is not given to all" ( 3.22.10).

The "actual fact" that some believe and others do not might be partly explained, but even if we fully explained what makes belief or unbelief happen, the mystery that it happens would remain.

To name and portray this mystery, Calvin turned to Scripture and John 6:65: "No one can come to me unless it has been granted him by my Father." Following Scripture, Calvin named the mystery "God" and portrayed God as predestining some "to salvation [belief]" and others "to destruction [unbelief]" (3.21.1).

Thus, Calvin's faith description of people as "predestined to life or to death" (3.21.5) is not only true to Scripture, it fits "actual fact." If everyone repented and believed, God would be portrayed as predestining everyone "to life." If no one repented and believed, God would be portrayed as predestining everyone "to death."

Fact and Faith

It is crucial to remember that predestination is a biblical faith name for the mystery that the facts of belief and unbelief happen. It neither explains nor contradicts the facts or their causes. Calvin noted that Scripture requires that we "consider this great mystery" (3.23.12), but he also warned against unrestrained "human curiosity" (3.21.1).

Misreading faith language as fact language has caused misconceptions of predestination as fatalism or determinism, and these misconceptions have spawned bitter conflicts. Factual responsibility for one's destiny can be ascribed to the unbeliever while, at the same time and without contradiction, faith can portray God as ultimately responsible.

Evil, Anger, and God is listed on http://www.Amazon.com with reviews, and you can read parts of it on Amazon's "Look Inside" feature. You can read other parts of the book on http://www.Google.com Books. However, the section about Predestination cannot be read this way.

Where do you stand on the doctrine of Predestination? Do you resonate with the above as much as I do?

sounds good .... and it is a doctrine I have no problems with ... as I believe in the basic assumption that God is God, and He acts according to the good pleasure of His own will (and not ours )

There are good articles on the bible.org site, and another good site with good articles is John Piper's site at http://www.desiringgod.com

in Christ

Dinah

No, the teachings of Calvin do not resonate with me.

I see much in scripture that teaches it is God's will that we have free will to serve Him or to reject Him.

There are some long threads on this, and they are good reading before starting a new thread. Try this one:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=7022&p=68158&hilit=wanna#p68158

Predestination does not teach that God actively chooses some for hell. It only deals with those who are chosen for belief. We are all destined for eternal punishment, because we all deserve it. God predestines some of us for faith.

George, if you want to know any more about the topic, Jacob Arminius and John Calvin both frequently lurk on this site under the pseudonyms of "Cobra" and "Psychobobicus", respectively.

Regards.

Wait a minute...
Jim I hope you are aware that I have very little familiarity with Calvin.

I am far more familiar with Luther and Jerome Zanchius. Zanchius wrote Absolute Predestination around the same time as Calvin was active. I have also read a little Augustine on the topic.

And I know neither man (or are they women?)

I am a follower of Jesus Christ, not Paul or Apollos or Peter or more modern people.

>>>...God "predestined [people] to be adopted as his children" according to "his will and pleasure" as a "gracious gift" (Ephesians 1:5 REB).

I do not agree with your understanding of these passages (proof-texts) which you are taking out of context. Ephesians is Paul's attempt to show what the believer's destiny is. That is, now that they stand in God's favor, what happens now? He says that in a sense, they have become as cargo on a train, headed to the promised land. So predestination begins when one believes.

>>>God "predestined [people] to be conformed to the image of his Son," and "those whom [God] predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified" (Romans 8:29 30).

This is a reference to gentiles, not to individuals. Again, it is important to read in context, not to lift out proof-texts.

>>>...Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father." Those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe, because [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 6:65; 12:37 40 abr).

This is a specific reference to the Jews, who were under partial, temporary, judicial hardening.

>>>Paul told the Romans that some were "the elect [or called]" but "the rest were hardened" for "God gave them a sluggish [or insensible] spirit" (Romans 11:7-8).

Again, this is a specific reference to hardened Jews, not policy toward all men.

Wounded,
I agree. People are too often reading "individual" where Paul is writing about groups.

Nice theory, but it does not agree with the actual text of the passage. Here is the entire passage so we can see what Paul actually says.


Unless we believed, "before the foundation of the world," we were predestined far before "when one believes." I agree with you that this passage is talking about the future, but it is also talking about the past. Paul argues that we are guaranteed our inheritance because we have been chosen beforehand.

Where in the context does Paul say "This is a reference to gentiles, not to individuals"? In fact, he includes himself, a Jew, with this group:

Again, your assertion does not match the actual text.

So...according to Paul, predestination and election is limited to Gentiles, while Jesus says it is limited to Jews? Huh? Again, the text disagrees with you:

For you to be right, Jesus used "No one" when He should have said "hardened Jews"? That does not make sense.


Woa woa. Paul said election and predestination was for Gentiles and Jews? Doesn't that cover everybody?

You are making contradictory arguments here. As usual with those who deny the biblical doctrine of predestination, you are forced to use dubious hermeneutics and misread the actual text to make the Bible fit your view.

Just for fun, please provide your definition of "predestination."

>>>...Unless we believed, "before the foundation of the world," we were predestined far before "when one believes."

There are two things to look at here, at least...

* he chose [aorist] "us in him" - or, "believers" for adoption as sons. Compare:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

* the KOSMOS (order) referred to here is the world to come (he is speaking of the future), or "the new world order";

>>>I agree with you that this passage is talking about the future, but it is also talking about the past. Paul argues that we are guaranteed our inheritance because we have been chosen beforehand.

The guarantee of the inheritance comes when one believes:

Eph 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: **in whom also after that ye believed**, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Continued...

>>>God "predestined [people] to be conformed to the image of his Son," and "those whom [God] predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified" (Romans 8:29 30).
...Where in the context does Paul say "This is a reference to gentiles, not to individuals"?

Romans is written to the gentiles to assure them that they are not second class to the Jews. The whole letter provides the context. He is arguing against the pre-Pauline Christians (Jews) who want to say that the gentiles are not acceptable because they are not Jews (do not accept circumcision). Paul says that they have the breath of God that bears witness that they are sons and heirs. Read 8:26ff

>>>In fact, he includes himself, a Jew, with this group:

Paul is not a Jew. To Paul, "the only good is an ex-Jew". He counts his Judaism as sewage that he abandons to gain Christ. One cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.

>>>...So...according to Paul, predestination and election is limited to Gentiles, while Jesus says it is limited to Jews? Huh? Again, the text disagrees with you:

You can't pull proof-texts from various authors and treat them like a cohesive thought. Paul and Jesus/John both say that the Jews are hardened to the gospel (except for the elect among them that are spared the hardening). The gentiles are a chosen vessel of mercy:

Rom 9:
30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Jn 6:43-45.
For you to be right, Jesus used "No one" when He should have said "hardened Jews"? That does not make sense.


>>>Paul told the Romans that some were "the elect [or called]" but "the rest were hardened" for "God gave them a sluggish [or insensible] spirit" (Romans 11:7-8).
Again, this is a specific reference to hardened Jews, not policy toward all men.
Woa woa. Paul said election and predestination was for Gentiles and Jews? Doesn't that cover everybody?

You are making contradictory arguments here. As usual with those who deny the biblical doctrine of predestination, you are forced to use dubious hermeneutics and misread the actual text to make the Bible fit your view.

Just for fun, please provide your definition of "predestination."

Well, that may be your opinion, but a lot of good scholars would disagree with your view of the purpose of Romans.

Please provide the citation for your anti-semitic remarks. Paul said:



Neither can you. I was the one who posted the entire context of the passages we are discussing. You apparently skipped over:

God calls and chooses Jews and Gentiles to become "vessels of mercy." If you want to accuse me of "pulling proof-texts" then you had better not do it yourself.

I'll ask again, please provide your definition of "predestination."

>>>Well, that may be your opinion, but a lot of good scholars would disagree with your view of the purpose of Romans.

No importa.

>>>Please provide the citation for your anti-semitic remarks. Paul said:
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 2 Co 11:22

Phil 3:
4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 ***But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ***.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul indulges in "evangelism via half-truths":

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Bill, what exactly are you in hopes of finding or accomplishing as you peruse and post on this website? Your identification indicates that you are an agnostic, yet your tagline directs everyone to your blog where your promote your book. A description of it may be found on Amazon which states:



So, an "agnostic" is one without knowledge. Are you seeking knowledge, or are you seeking to promote your book in an effort to profit by tearing down the faith of others?

Regards.