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As presbyters in the New Testament are all without exception apostolic appointments , it is not possible that anyone can be one today and if one thinks he is or can then I ask 'who appointed you' if you say the church then the church is your leader as the apostles were to the presbyters of old and you cannot lead them

Better not to think we are over other people in the Lord - seeing we cannot prove appointment by the Lord

A Better way is that of natural intercourse in the church so that we folloow the best advice from whoever it comes be it a sister or a brother in the Lord

To Jennifers friend - cheer up it is a false position - status within a peer group is nothing. But God be thanked for everyone who for wrong reasons has a position but regards it as nothing and serves: lifts others up, condiders other better than themselves and makes people of low status, position and esteem their heroes
Rom 12 'Follow after them of low degree'
in other words make them imortant and so fulfil the royal law

Keith

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iron sharpens iron

well i can say when i get marred it will only be to one now if we look at the vows it says what God put together let no man tare apart. now that is not a veiw of this world but of the bible. dose this mean that people who get devorced cant serve God of course not the truth is man put limet on those who can serve him in ministry who beter to help people going thew divorce then some one who has been thew it well thatis that but we as humans exspecolly befor we get to know Christ at out of our will and not his. is divorce a reason to keep some one from serving God what right to we have to stop people from serving God where he calls them i am a preacher and i will not stop some one just becouse of divorce what right do i have

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I am not sure what one regards as a church officer.

I cant imagine asking a builder in fellowship to oversee a construction work - would realy be a church office

But if it is a more public work from making announcements, leading a bible study etc, leading public prayers. Then evidently not only gift or suitability should come into it but also the person should be an example in a real moral sense

Whatever the circumstances divorce and re marriage does not relect the ideal, nor should I be angry that it bars me from some things as above all I myself want Glory of the Lord and the ideal of Christianity to be presented in word, spirit and example and my example being that I recognise that

Yours in Christ

Keith

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iron sharpens iron

First off, let me say from the start that I may have a biased outlook. Like almost half of Christians out there, my marriage ended in divorce. This was in the past. I will have no problem with getting remarried should the opportunity present itself. There are several issues here, and I put forth two:

-- Should there be second-class Christians?

--The encouragement of "show" marriages that seem oh so perfect on the surface, but are dead, may have always been dead, and are in fact cynical mutual contracts for career and social advancement. There is often tolerated, and expected, "infidelity" in these contractual deals.

Comments?

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Do you think the issue of re-marriage and leadership in the Church is an issue of "second-class Christians"? Or do you actually think that those who serve in a public role of leadership in the Church should demonstrate this through a particular fidelity in such matters as family, faith, finances and church (sorry ran out of alliteratives )?

And I guess I'm not really certain about your second question so I can't really speak to it. I do know some sham marriages that seemed more contractual than covenantal, but I still don't know what your question was...sorry.

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Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
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In certain ways, yes. See the wording of the OP.
Of the second, we see it in politics and the entertainment industry all the time.
I think it's not uncommon in ministry (elders, ministers, etc. whose life is wrapped up in this untarnished identity.)
gotta run If I get the chance I may clarify-- sorry.

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Evidently, experiance, age, gift, wisdom etc make some better suited to works - no good having a teacher who cannnot teach.

However that does not make first class and second glass believers
In the same way very public or representative positions must take account of moral matters, being of good report amongst the general population is a qualification for fitness for certain roles.

I have used thev word 'leading' to indicate a public task on behalf of all, but I detest calling people 'leaders' as we only have one and that is Christ and in the same way the initiater of every good work is the Holy Spirit, and although he puts it into a persons mind to do something and others join in, the Leader will always be Christ - not me and although I engage in a work the initiater will always be the Holy Spirit, not me

If I call myself a 'leader' I am taking the glory from our only Leader Christ

Keith

_________________
iron sharpens iron

1 Corinthians 12:28 28 And God has placed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, gifts of healing, helps, gifts of leadership, different kinds of tongues. Context (NET)

Note the "gifts of leadership". And in the two following passages there is specifically mention of those who lead and of leaders within the Church.

1 Timothy 5:17 17 Elders who provide effective leadership must be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. Context (NET)

Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24 7 Remember your leaders, who spoke God’s message to you; reflect on the outcome of their lives and imitate their faith. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you. 24 Greetings to all your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy send you greetings. Context (NET)

None of this is a diminishing of the headship of Christ, but in fact a recognition of the gifts that Christ has given to His Church.

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Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
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In the apostolic church these appointments were apostolic appointments and operated under the apostles (and under special delegates e.g Timothy, Titus), teaching only apostolic doctrine.

And they, the delegates and the apostles were indeed the leaders of the church in that way.

In no New Testament letter to any church were there instructions for the appointment of such.
In the post apostolic age these tasks were passed down from faithful men to faithful men, so that episcopalin system remained in force, but as time passed it became a power game of corruption. But that epicopalin system has and did not have any scriptures to back its maintenance

In the fourth centuary the scriptures were generaly approved as we have them now as being apostolic doctrine, and all else was rejected as not being genuine.

By the time of the reformation, corruption in the church, reformers, translations and the printing press, and huge numbers getting saved, placed scripture in its rightful place

Paul was able to say to the apostolic appointed presbyters of Asia Minor 'whom the Holy Spirit has made you' That is because of the chain of direct authority Christ appointng Apostles, apostles appointng presbyters who were under apostolic control and therefore of the Spirit of God

You and I regardless of any method of appointment could never claim that we are made such by the Holy Spirit, anyone could say How ? or prove it ? and we, if we are honest, could not offer tangible proof

We are in reality, through scripture still under apostolic teaching and our leader is Christ - not me or you, unless you believe in apostolic succession and papal type power

Yours in Christ


Keith

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iron sharpens iron

Your rabbit trail has nothing to do with divorce and Christian service. Did you have something more to add to the OP? I think you seem to miss that there does not need to be any "Apostolic succession" (in that doctrinal/ecclesiastical sense), when there is the apostolic authority of teaching that continues in the Spirit anointed teaching of those Scriptures handed down by the Apostolic band. I believe that is what the Reformers meant (applicationally) by Sola Scriptura.

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Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
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Twitter: @RickWadholmJr

I tried to show that a person who publically represents the church should also not only have ability in the task but equaly a moral character that represents the ideal, and that this not a system that holds to first or second class Christians and I suspect that normally this would make a person think about that if a remarried divorcee. The same would apply to a person that has two or several wifes before becoming a Christian. He cannot get rid of all but one, he has a rsponsibility to all, but can not be a chosen representative the church publically

However I am not of the opinion that all divorces are wrong, it seems to me that where one partner has broken the promises of fidelity that the innocent party are not in the wrong if they seek divorce or seperation and later meet someone that they marry; and other exceptional circumstances such as marrying a person with a mental disorder that was not delared or hidden until after the marriage, violence etc.

I simply gave my reasons for not calling people leaders of the church or elders. I believe persons who devote their life to the study and teaching of the word are deacons or Ministers of the church and that is a scriptural title for today. But authority over the church is not found within that office but moral suitability should be

Keith

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iron sharpens iron