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Which translations would you have in mind?

we'er born sinners & we sin -- Aminans would disagree w/ the 1st part but hey

After doing some searching through the Hebrew Scriptures. I still cannot agree with you Alexy.

Even though the Tanakh says,

[29 ] See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.
(Ecclesiastes 7:29)

Why then would we need to be born-again?

Psalm 51:7
Indeed I was born with iniquity;
with sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3
4The wicked are defiant from birth;
the liars go astray from the womb.
(i cant see how baby who cant talk can lie)

Job 15:14 is kinda squishy here it doesnt talk about state of soul in the beginning!

all i can conclude from this verses is that it talks about flesh of man as unclean instantly after conception!!! how about soul and spirit???


Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures

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Hear, O Israel: The Lord our G-d, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Hi alexey,
Yes,we can't see a baby who can't talk say a lie,but you can hear him crying may be asking for milk or pampers replacement
or other things.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

Alexey,

It seems that you're right. The Tanakh does not support the doctrine of Total Depravity.


Jews would also.

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
Romans 7:14–21

Ezekiel 18:31
31 Throw far away from yourselves all your crimes that you committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit; for why should you die, house of Isra’el?
Deuteronomy 10:16
16 Therefore, circumcise the foreskin of your heart; and don’t be stiffnecked any longer!

i dont think it is total depravity otherwise we cant cooperate with God but it is fallen nature that only wants is SIN , what does repentance do? would be the follow up question .
does anyone have some good book abt this topic to recommend?

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Hear, O Israel: The Lord our G-d, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Hi alexey,

It seems total depravity isn't in line with Scripture, neither Original Sin for that matter.

The fact of the matter is that Augustine was heavily influenced by the Greek thinkers of that time, including the Gnostics. The Gnostics taught that all matter is evil. I believe that Original Sin was a by-product of Gnosticism, it certainly does have similarities with Original Sin.

Anyways, with the knowledge I now posess, I can confidently say that we become sinners when we sin.

According to Total Depravity, babies that die go to hell, which is unthinkable. Same with Original Sin, that's why the Catholic Church has infant baptismals, so that if they die, they won't go to hell.

I took a look at many of the Scriptures that supposedly prove (or atleast evidence) Total Depravity, and I realized that most (if not all) are taken out of context.

Besides, if the Rabbis didn't believe in Total Depravity (or Original Sin), then why would we. Also, the doctrine came quite late. As you said in another thread, understanding the funamentals of Judaism is essential to understanding Jesus, Paul, Peter and everyone else.

Then again, some will say otherwise (usually Calvinists).

you've read particular verses & both Pam & myself have derived different conclusions -- hence, your stmt proves nothing

these same rabbis discount Jesus as their Messiah -- do you really want to base your view on their position?!

doesn't matter what you think but what God Thinks on the matter...

this is another area where disputes WILL occur -- i hold a diff view than yours but hey -- my comments are meant to invalidate your assertions, not your view -- ain't gonna comment on every line either

I wasn't trying to prove anything.

Just giving reasons as to why I believe what I now believe.

But since you asked.....!

[4 ] Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Held accountable for our sins not Adam's.

[37 ] They sacrificed their sons
and their daughters to the demons;
[38 ] they poured out innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters,
whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
and the land was polluted with blood.
(Psalm 106:37-38)

According to Total Depravity and OS, there's no such thing as innocent blood. Well guess they're wrong.

If you hold to T.D then you probably think Rom. 5:12-14 is clear.

[Death in Adam, Life in Christ]
[12 ] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— [13 ] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14 ] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
(Romans 5:12-14)

Where does it say that we inherit a sinful nature that makes us totally depraved from conception? No where. All I (or you) can tell from this verse is that death spread through sin. Notice how it doesn't say that death spread to all men because all sinned in Adam.


I think you missed my point. My point is that their fundamental doctrines are correct. They believe in a Messiah, just not Jesus. They believe in the Tanakh (Old Testament), the Old Testament is the foundation for Judaism and was the foundation for Jesus and the disciples (and probably still is the foundation, but that's another topic for another thread). If Judaism never believed in Total Depravity or Original Sin, there's a good chance that it's not true. If it cannot be found in the Tanakh, there's a good chance that it's false doctrine.

(Side note: Paul was a Jewish Rabbi.)

Some may disagree, but it was essentially what I was saying.

clearly, if you'd read my post you'd see i didn't ask you anything -- i merely responded to what you wrote & pointed out the fallacy in a couple arguments -- but now it's apparent you wish to engage in some debate -- you have Scriptural Support for your view...great -- i wholeheartedly disagree w/ your conclusions/interpretations -- it happens

you read a verse & see X whereas i read the same & see Y -- plus, you & i don't disagree well so i've limited my responses with respect to your posts -- the Calvin-Arminian standoff will continue & that's fine by me

<virtual cop>
...move along everyone...nothing to see here...
</virtual cop>

I meant that to be sarcastic...sorry. Probably should've put a smilie.

The following is directed at anyone interested in continuing the discussion.

Couple of points:

1.) Some who hold to T.D and OS usually use Scripture like Psalm 51:5

[5 ] Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
(Psalm 51:5)

I see a problem in using this verse to support TD. Textually, this has nothing to do with Adam's sin or inheriting Adam's sin. This verse can be taken several ways.

The following is a quote from someone from another thread some time back:



You can choose whichever you like, but if you take it literally then you also have to take v.7 literally:
[7 ] Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
(Psalm 51:7)
Clearly this was not meant to be taken literally.

2.) Some use Psalm 58:1-6 as a proof-text for TD. Again we find a Hyperbole:

[TO THE CHOIRMASTER: ACCORDING TO DO NOT DESTROY. A MIKTAM OF DAVID.]
[58 :1] Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods?
Do you judge the children of man uprightly?
[2 ] No, in your hearts you devise wrongs;
your hands deal out violence on earth.
[3 ] The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
[4 ] They have venom like the venom of a serpent,
like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
[5 ] so that it does not hear the voice of charmers
or of the cunning enchanter.
[6 ] O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD!
(Psalm 58:1-6)

What makes them wicked? Adam's sin? No. The verse preceeding v.3 says it's because of their works "your hands deal out violence..." Question: How can they go astray if they're already born into sin? And as alexey pointed out; babies can't talk so they can't lie.

3.) Eph. 2:1-3 is one of the most famous proof-texts for TD.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
(Ephesians 2:1-3, KJV)

Where's Adam's sin mentioned? It's not. In fact, v.1 makes it clear that they were dead in "trespasses and sins" (plural). V.2 says, "in time past ye walked..." Paul connects the sin and trespasses to conduct.

"But what about 'nature' in V.3? That's proof!!" Not so fast. From previous verses it wouldn't be reasonable to conclude that they were born sinful. There are a number of ways to interpret it, and I believe that in this context, Thayer's 3rd definition fits the bill:



4.) Isaiah said that it's our iniquites that separate us from God (not our sinful nature):

[2 ] but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.
(Isaiah 59:2)

Now some may disagree with all this, but as a wise man once said:

fair enough -- thanks for clarifying

32K,

Earlier you quoted Ecclesiates 7:29 stating that total depravity is absent from the Tanakh. However, what of Ecclesiastes 9:3?

Total depravity and the concept thereof makes no such judgment upon babies. The implications of a doctrine which you draw are yours. They do not make the doctrine invalid. It is unthinkable that any man go to hell but that is still a truth. Many will and it will be by their own choice according to the scriptures.
The Rabbi's also don't believe in Jesus so, why should we? Such arguments are complete nonsense. Further, just because the concept is stated historically by theologians that does not mean it was not taught earlier throughout history. The formal doctrine of the Trinity was late but you affirm your belief in it in another thread. Understanding Judiaism is important to understand Jesus, Paul, etc. But understand also that Jesus taught that Judaistic thought had corrupted God's intent in the Word. Thus we have passages such as Matthew 15:4-9. If Judiaism nullified a simple Godly concept like honoring a Father & Mother why wouldn't other simple and more complex concepts be nullified by thier teaching?
The Rabbi's you so intently follow are spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 15:14. Why should anyone follow a "bllind-guide"?

Blessings,
Randy

read matthew 23 basically Jesus Christ says that follow their doctrine but dont do what the do! Jesus Christ lived the tradition that was at that time(Tradition that didn't contradict God's Word) and so did the apostles Acts 21. but it is not the topic we discussing there are other place for this topic .
i think we need to understand how far we have fallen in Adam!!!

_________________
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our G-d, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.