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 Post subject: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:52 pm 
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is there such thing as total depravity in the Bible???


6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

Gen 4:6-7

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:14 pm 
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While I'm completely uncertain as to your choice of Scripture text for the discussion of the doctrine you are asking about I would actually refer you to the excellent brief article on "Total Depravity" by Pastor John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist Church found HERE. In summary, his four points are as follows:

(1) Our rebellion against God is total. Apart from the grace of God there is no delight in the holiness of God, and there is no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God.
(2) In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.
(3) Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.
(4) Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.

One must always bear in mind that "total depravity" DOES NOT mean that people are as bad as they possibly could be. No. They are still restrained by the grace of God and certainly do more evil than they are currently doing, but they are not capable of saving themselves by any means and all of mankind's 'goodness' is nothing but unrighteousness before a Holy and Just God. I hope that this clarifies a bit...though I have some question as to whether you are looking for a conversation or a dispute (given the nature of your several other recently started threads...let's just see if you can allow this to be the former and not the latter :wink: ). Blessings.

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:36 am 
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ooh man , i chose hard one for my self

Gen. 6:5
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Jeremiah 5:1
Jeremiah. 13:23
Jeremiah. 17:9
Ezek. 22:30–31
Isaiah 53:6


Ezekiel 18:31

and

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Romans 7:14–21

i need to think abt it 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:41 am 
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alexeyhurricane wrote:
is there such thing as total depravity in the Bible?
Let's see what folk think "total depravity" means before we try to find out if it is a biblical teaching. I know that the phrase "total depravity" isn't in any English bible translation that I own, maybe one of those who believes the T of TULIP can explain what they teach about the T and why they teach it.

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:56 am 
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Antipater wrote:
(1) Our rebellion against God is total. Apart from the grace of God there is no delight in the holiness of God, and there is no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God.
(2) In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.
(3) Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.
(4) Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.


lol i think "roman catholic" church since 1500s after reformation doesnt believe in original sin and possibly rejects total depravity as i know

i think this defines it!

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:45 pm 
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i guess it depends how one views the fall of Adam!! and how far ?? consciousness??

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:53 pm 
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i like this explanation

When we observe people, what do we see—good or evil?
After having observed the experiment called humanity for ten generations, God concluded: “… the devisings of man’s mind are evil from his youth” (Genesis 8:21). People are, by nature, wicked. To punish them for being true to their inclinations seemed both unfair and futile, so God swore not to destroy humankind again by means of a catastrophic flood.
After having observed eight human beings hiding from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic for two years, Anne Frank concluded:
It’s really a wonder that I haven’t dropped all my ideals, because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. (diary entry, July 15, 1944)
Who was right—God or Anne? God understood the human heart only too well. It wasn’t necessary for God to “ever again destroy every living being …”; humankind in the twentieth century proved quite capable of doing the job, murdering tens of millions in the most horrible of ways.
But Anne wasn’t just a naïve fifteen-year-old when she wrote her startlingly optimistic words. She knew very well what human beings were capable of in the world outside her hiding place. But she also knew that human beings were risking torture and death every day trying to keep her and seven others alive in a hidden room, behind an upstairs bookcase.
So who was right … God or Anne Frank? In typical Rabbinic fashion, the Midrash responds: They’re both right. There is within every human being the possibility of evil, and there is within every human being the possibility of righteousness. The heart, if left uncontrolled, will create much wickedness. But the heart can be controlled, and if it is, much goodness will result.
What is most fascinating is that the difference between righteousness and evil, between a person who is a צַדִּיק/tzaddik, and a person who is a רָשָׁע/rasha, is minute. The Rabbis point this out by focusing on a minor grammatical point. The single Hebrew letter בּ/bet, attached as a prefix to the Hebrew word for “heart,” signals a human being who has been grabbed and taken over by another entity, another power.
Conversely, the Hebrew prepositions אֶל/el and עַל/al, made up of just two Hebrew letters each, are separate words, not prefixes; they remain independent of the “heart.” They remind us that when people stand on their own and remain apart from negative influences, they can control their own destinies. A difference of one single letter, set one step apart, changes everything. The Rabbis took note of these small choices of grammatical usage. And they taught us that the same rules apply to the realm of morality. It’s the small choices we make in life that determine whether the heart controls us or whether we control the heart … whether we become like those who hunted down the innocent, or become like those who hid them.


Katz, Michael ; Schwartz, Gershon: Searching for Meaning in Midrash: Lessons for Everyday Living. Philadelphia, PA : The Jewish Publication Society, 2002, S. 46

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:33 am 
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ill post question abt what is original sin?????!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:11 pm 
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DailyBread wrote:
Let's see what folk think "total depravity" means before we try to find out if it is a biblical teaching
good pt

DailyBread wrote:
I know that the phrase "total depravity" isn't in any English bible translation that I own
& neither is "Trinity" -- so your pt is irrelevant

this thread seems to have moved to the orininal sin 1 but i thought the above 2 pts merited comment


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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:00 am 
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Original sin means,

Quote:
ORIGINAL SIN: The sin by which the first human beings disobeyed the commandment of God, choosing to follow their own will rather than God's will. As a consequence they lost the grace of original holiness, and became subject to the law of death; sin became universally present in the world. Besides the personal sin of Adam and Eve, original sin describes the fallen state of human nature which affects every person born into the world, and from which Christ, the "new Adam," came to redeem us.
The Westminster Confession of Faith presents a Presbyterian perspective on total depravity. I do not subscribe to that confession and I do not accept its definition of total depravity as a definition of any biblical concept but I reckon some Presbyterian or Calvinist from one of the Reformed traditions can argue in support of it if they want to - I shan't.

Quote:
SIN: An offence against God as well as a fault against reason, truth, and right conscience. Sin is a deliberate thought, word, deed, or omission contrary to the eternal law of God. In judging the gravity of sin, it is customary to distinguish between mortal and venial sins.

VENIAL SIN: Sin which does not destroy the divine life in the soul, as does mortal sin, though it diminishes and wounds it. Venial sin is the failure to observe necessary moderation, in lesser matters of the moral law, or in grave matters acting without full knowledge or complete consent.

MORTAL SIN: A grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner (sanctifying grace), constituting a turn away from God. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be present: grave matter, full knowledge of the evil of the act, and full consent of the will.
Hope the above definitions are helpful. They all come from the Glossary at the end of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:35 am 
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DB, outside of the grace of God, can man perform meritorious works? If not, why not?

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:41 pm 
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psychobobicus wrote:
DB, outside of the grace of God, can man perform meritorious works? If not, why not?
Don't let me cramp your didactic style; if you want to tell us what you think then do so and I'll have a read of what you say (as long as it doesn't get too wordy). You ought to know what my answer (a Catholic answer) will be before asking your question. It's all written down in the 16th century Roman Catechism, 20th century CCC, and many other Catholic Catechisms written through the centuries.

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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:53 pm 
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DailyBread wrote:
You ought to know what my answer (a Catholic answer) will be before asking your question. It's all written down...
Great DB then you ought to easily answer the question rather than causing all to go to some obscure documents. Now, will you?

BTW I hold easily to the Westminster Confession in regards to Total Depravity.
Blessings,
Randy


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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:35 pm 
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DB -- w/o trying to "pile on" nor divert the thread,...is there a cool verse that describes what is a mortal sin vs. a venial? -- i never understood this distinction as the Word States if you sin, you die (Rom. 6:23) -- there's no distinction made as far as i can see -- plus, "venial" isn't found in any English version of the Bible :P


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 Post subject: Re: Total Depravity
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:17 pm 
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They are not obscure documents; the Romans Catechism and the CCC are both available online, and there is even a short easy-to-read Compendium for the Catechism of the Catholic Church available. I'd give you the URLs but I am not sure that you'd want me to but if you do, just let me know and I will.

Cheers

PS: yes paco, there is, it is in 1 John.

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