The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

How do you get that? Esau did not "work" for his birth right and he did not pay for it over time, it was his. Esau could give up His birth right or sell it like we can sell our birth right to persue the pleasures of sin. Read gal. 6: 7-9 it talks about giving up our eternal life (the havest we did nothing to deserve.)

bling, you are comparing apples and oranges. Our responsibility in salvation is not comparable with Semitic familial relations. As for Gal. 6:7-9, if you believe it teaches you can "give up our eternal life" then you also must believe it teaches we earn it through good works. Look at the context. At any rate, if you want to discuss this topic further, you might want to start a new thread.

S., debating theology is actually relaxing to me! You should know I have nothing against the basic concept of "Free Grace," just making the basic concept the sum of the Christian life.

As for Piper, although I don't have much experience with his teaching, he holds a special place in my heart. When I spent a semester of college in Israel, one of our professors would read a devotional by Piper after we sang some hymns and praise songs on our way to church in Jerusalem Saturday mornings. I will never forget those days.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

This is a bigger subject then we can address here. But Gal. 6:7-9 is not saying we earn our salvation by sowing seeds to the spiritual things. We cannot avoid sowing seeds either they are good or bad seeds, if we are alive. The harvest is a gift from the Lord that we do not deserve or have earned. If you are a Child of God you will sow good seed automatically, but if you give up your position than you will sow bad seed and not share in God's harvest of eternal life.
Our birth right as Christians is very similar to the Jewish birth right and that is what the Hewbrew writer is presenting in Heb. 12 as an example.

John Piper does not teach salvation by works. In fact, he actually teaches the opposite. What John Piper is saying, along with Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the other Reformers, is that genuine faith produces good works (James 2:14-26). Though justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, progressive sanctification must necessarily follow those who are already justified (Romans 6:6; 8:10). There are way too many Scripture passages that speak of the necessity of living a new life that is significantly different from the lives of the unregenerate (cf. 1 John). Don't buy into the lie that people can be saved at the end without a transformed heart and transformed lives. This is a heresy and a lie of the devil (Jude 4). Yes, all genuine Christians grow and progress in sanctification at different levels and degrees but they will be experientially sanctified, you can bet on it.

I suggest people read these books to know more about this subject:

The Gospel According to Jesus by John F. MacArthur
Finally Alive by John Piper
Holiness by J. C. Ryle
Justification and Regeneration by Charles Leiter
Christ the Lord edited by Michael S. Horton
That You May Know by Christopher David Bass

I am not saying I agree exactly with all the above authors but I do believe they are much more closer to the truth than people like Zane Hodges or Joseph Dillow.

The Bible would not have warned us if it were not hypothetically possible to lose your salvation. Good works are not how you get saved but how you stay saved. "Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life." Esv,. For example, helping the poor. One of the requirements in Matthew 25 for entering eternal life. You know it's right to help the poor, James tells us that if we know what to do and we don't do it its a sin. Hebrews tells us that you will lose your salvation if you keep deliberately sinning. 10:26 (Even though this would be impossible "1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.") Get the idea? Another way of wording it is that repentance is necessary condition of salvation "unless you repent you will likewise perish" Luke 6. This includes repentance from lack of good works hence "repent, and do the works you did before" Revelation 2

No one has answered Vladimir's point that about the free car only to those who pay for it. This is not just Piper, but others.

Piper also says the same thing using different words. He compares people receiving salvation to the electric company turning on the lights. Then, God, he says, walks around every day looking for light coming from the house, and if he doesn't, shuts off the electricity. Future Grace, pp. 257-258.

_Of course_ love proves that faith is genuine. What Piper wants is a no-love-enough-for-salvation criterion: a way before judgment day, to announce to people that their faith is not genuine. He wants to, in the Baptist's words, take the tree chopping job.

the assumption you erroneously make is that the Bible does this -- it Encourages us to be vigilant against sin & to produce fruit -- mankind's pride hungers to earn its way into heaven & this works message is red meat

so Christ's Work on the Cross isn't enough for you?! -- so be it -- but it was anathema & a different Gospel to Paul (review Galatians -- here's a taste: Gal. 3:1-5)

this is nonsense -- see John 6:28-29 for the ONLY rqmt -- sola fide, baby -- Rom. 1:17 -- as for Matt. 25, you have taken that out of context

sure but what exactly does this mean? -- when is enough? -- what is the divine cut-off where God Stamps your ticket to Paradise -- did the thief on the cross know his ticket was Punched by God due to all his charitable work for the poor OR because of his faith in Christ?! -- what you espouse is ANOTHER gospel of a different kind & so heresy, not to mention foolishness

i believe i disagree with everything you wrote -- you seriously need to check your self-righteous attitude @ the door, seek another church, & get yourself in the Word -- start with Galatians as the seed you sow leads to distruction -- i will pray for you as this view has ensnared many

i have no idea who this is or what he said -- nor do i know what Piper espouses -- since he's fallible, let's discuss what the Word Says instead

do you have a verse for this? -- we know love fulfills the Law but that could not be speaking our our love since we died to the Law (Gal. 2:19-21) -- Christ's Love Fulfilled the Law -- we do know this: 1 Pet. 1:7

Paco, you asked for a verse to show that love proves that faith is genuine -- James 2:18c, "I will show you my faith, from my works."

Often people read the converse, as if James says (he DOESN'T SAY THIS:) 'unless I show you from my works, then I don't have faith.' That's NOT what James said. Let's look at what James says, first, then what it doesn't say.

My works show you my faith. James 2:18c. This means that if I show you my works, I have shown you my faith. James is of course talking about good works, that are good in the sight of God as well. If something is not good in the sight of God Himself, for which He will one day say to the person, "well-done, good and faithful servant" (Mt 25:21), then that doesn't show anything.

But if something is truly a good work, if I show you that, I show you my faith as well. Whatever is not of faith is sin (Rm 14:23), so if I'm showing you nothing but what is sin, that shows nothing about faith . But if I show something good in the sight of God, then also I have shown you my faith. This is true even at the Matthew 10:42 level.

So we have James 2:18c, and we have Rm 14:23. If something is truly good, it is of faith. We also have Jn 15:5, which Jesus tells the disciples they can do _nothing_ without Him. So if something is accomplished that is good, then a) it is of faith, and b) it is with Christ that it was done.

Now let's talk about what the weed-pulling attitude (Matthew 13:28) wants. It wants to pull plants up. It's rule is "we see that there are unbelievers out there. Here is our rule. If it looks like it's an unbeliever, we'll pull it." And the master says, "no, lest you pull up the wheat with them" (Mt 13:29). The master's rule is NO WHEAT will be uprooted, and the workers should wait to harvest for others to do that job.

Their rule is not James 2:18c, "my works show you my faith," but they, not seeing works, want to pull up whatever they see like that. They want a rule that says "someone's lack of works shows their lack of faith." This is the converse. A statement does not imply its converse.

In inference form, you can see the converse much easier. James 2:18c is stated in inference form, that f someone has works, then they have faith. They want "if someone does not have works, then they do not have faith." They want the converse. And the parable of the wheat and the weeds is against them, procedurally.

ok, but now you must show that works = love

the problem is we do not always know when a work is of God

sticking with the Book you choose, check James 1:12 -- it ties better with the verse i cited earlier than yours

It may be that some have a "weed-pulling" attitude, but if so, I don't know who they might be. Pointing to the necessity of a changed life for those hoping to inherit the kingdom of God does not, IMO, indicate a desire to uproot anyone. After all, the scriptures speak clearly and repeatedly of such a necessity, without which we will not be saved. Therefore failure to speak of such necessity is a failure to faithfully present the gospel.

1 John 1:5-7 5 Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. Context (NET)

1 John 2:3-6 3 Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments. 4 The one who says “I have come to know God” and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person. 5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. 6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked. Context (NET)

_________________
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The NET Bible Study Environment
Pastors Pro-Life Resource Center
Biblical Eldership

Paco,

"the assumption you erroneously make is that the Bible does this -- it Encourages us to be vigilant against sin & to produce fruit" 

Of course it does this. “Heb 4:1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.”

Paco, the assumption that you make is that losing salvation and being viligant against sin and producing fruit are different things. Being vigilant against sin and producing fruit are the same thing as staying saved. Lets look at sin.

“Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”

As for fruit “oh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me (virtually interchangable with bearing fruit as seen in the last verse) he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”

Good works are not how you get saved but how you stay saved
so Christ's Work on the Cross isn't enough for you?! -- so be it -- but it was anathema & a different Gospel to Paul (review Galatians -- here's a taste: Gal. 3:1-5)

I admit, that was bad wording. I should say, Good character is how you make sure that you are saved, and make sure that you will stay saved, and make sure that you will be saved. Summed up in these words “2Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 2Pe 1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 2Pe 1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.... 2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.” And if you do fall... “2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

How did the theif know? The thief knew because He responded to the revelation given him. But you do not comfort anyone who does not help the poor by their faith in Jesus, even the demons believe. What you say is "1Jn 3:17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?"

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Paco, As for your argument from John 6, it doesn't work. They simply asked "what must we be do to be working the works of God?" Even Simon believed. But that was not all that was required of him. "Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!Act 8:21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Act 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. Act 8:23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."

Why would this passage be in the Bible if the only requirement was faith (by that I mean faith not working through love)? Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"
Faith is the requirement of justification, sanctification is the requirement of glorification.

You sound like you want me to believe that I can be forgiven without repenting, is that true?

Gideon, you commented here that .

Only speaking about words in a book, published x amount of time ago, is not to accuse a person today. We are confident that the best will come to us, and to our Christian brothers and sisters that have published things we disagree with, whether by us changing our views, or by they doing so, or both, even to something neither has foreseen.

It is easy to show in a book published 17 years ago, a weed-pulling attitude in the author we are discussing. The author confronted a man living in adultery, and told him that the man would go to hell and suffer there forever if he didn't oppose this sin to the point of being willing to gouge out is own eye. (Future Grace, p. 331). I certainly didn't object to telling the man to oppose his own sins vehemently. But to pre assign the man's destiny as hell, the weed-pulling attitude, and to suspend hell above -- not even the sin itself, but -- not even whether the man was dealing with that sin as well as his other sins, but -- upon the amount of intensity he used to deal with one sin, is to say that lack of intensity is the unpardonable sin.

And this is not a casual comment or an isolated comment by this author. In another book, The Future of Justification, p. 18, the author says that the false teaching at Galatia would bring eternal ruin on those who embraced it. As you read the author discerning this, you'll find threats of hell thrown in for about every sin. Another example is not having gratitude at present. The author says (Future Grace, p. 11) that no one is saved who doesn't have gratitude.

I do not see in your references the attitude that you seem to, Clair. The gospel of Jesus Christ offers us hope, comfort, encouragement, and assurance. It also offers warning and admonition against the Day of Judgment. Pastorally speaking, an individual may at different times need to hear one of those messages emphasized or the other. The man or woman whose heart is broken and penitent before God needs to hear the former in that moment. The one who is deceived by sin so that his heart has been hardened by it needs to hear the latter in his circumstance. But both messages are integral to the gospel that Paul preached, and to omit one or the other is to preach a "different gospel" than the one Paul preached.

It was Jesus who said:

Matthew 5:27-29 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell. Context (NET)

Jesus taught that the intensity required in dealing with sin is "whatever it takes," and he also made it clear that those who love him will obey his commandments:

John 14:15, 21 15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him.” Context (NET)

The apostle John taught the same thing:

1 John 5:3 3 For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments do not weigh us down, Context (NET)

Jesus also warned that only those who do God's will are going to be welcomed into his everlasting kingdom:

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ Context (NET)

...as Paul also taught:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Context (NET)

Gal 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God! Context (NET)

If John Piper echoed the teachings of Christ and his apostles, he spoke the truth.

Piper does not make the statement you claim on p. 18 of The Future of Justification, but he would be right to do so, just as the apostle Paul wrote:

Galatians 5:2-4 2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you at all! 3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace! Context (NET)

And I fully agree with Piper that no one is saved who doesn't have gratitude. Ingratitude is a characteristic of those who do not know and love the Lord (2 Tim 3:2-5), and those who do not give thanks to God do not honor him as God. Who can receive the gospel of Christ our Lord without gratitude? Who can believe in Jesus and what he did for us without a grateful heart? Who can know our great God and Savior without giving thanks to him for who he is and for what he has done?

_________________
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The NET Bible Study Environment
Pastors Pro-Life Resource Center
Biblical Eldership