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I have read 3 or 4 books by Piper, no where did I get impression of your assumption. He may have been talking about "Judgement seat of Christ", where we will be judged according to works done in the flesh ( wood, hay , stubble ) and things we have done in the Holy Spirit
"Great white throne Judgement" people will be judged according to works

First, I provided a direct quote and context from Piper himself.
Secondly, Piper is contradictory, for on one hand he says we don't earn salvation by our works, yet, he also says that we receive salvation according to our works.

The problem with his logic, is that receiving something according to works IS earning it.

Piper has a radically different view of the Law of Moses as well.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... Was_Given/


....



Looks like Piper delights in the Law of Moses more so than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Vladimir,
Is there a reason you are distorting what Piper has written? What Piper has said is what the Evangelical faith coming from the Reformation has always said. He is simply saying that faith leads to works and that the Torah (Law) was never about salvific works on our own, but always about faith leading to works. Not sure how that's different from Paul's take in the NT???

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That's not official Roman Catholic teaching. If it was (aside from transubstantiation and their ecclesiology), I'd think about joining.

I agree. There are also a lot who believe God has granted every person the grace needed to bring them to faith, but the majority simply do not choose to believe (even, apparently, those who have never heard). The final work is not God, but man. A lot of these same people also hold that a person may loose their salvation if they do not behave a certain way, a sort of reverse works-based salvation.

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

I believe that the only people who appear before the Judgment Seat are the True Believers. Because they are the only ones that "have" been Judged before the foundation of the world and have been found innocent "only" because of the "blood of the Lamb" having been shed for them on their behalf. Not according to their "works". But because of God's atoning work on the Cross. All of the unsaved have ALWAYS had the Judgment of God on them their whole life. For ALL have Sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. The reason that any person dies is because they have always been guilty with the Judgment of God just as Adam was judged in the Garden with the curse of death. If Adam was not "saved" (and we can not tell because God does not tell us) then Adam could never come to the Judgment Seat to receive Mercy. I believe that the Judgment Seat and the Mercy seat are the same in the fact that Christ took on the Judgment that we deserved. And only the Father can draw us to see our need for a Saviour. Judgment and Mercy have indeed kissed at the Cross. And when an "unsaved" person dies they PERISH or to say it another way they have lost eternal life - even life in a tortured state. One would have to be alive to be "tormented" or correct translation "sad". God bless - John

Huh? I'm not distorting anything. I'm providing you with direct quotes.

There is a difference between Paul's take on the NT, namely Romans 4 which says we are justified APART from works and Piper, who says we receive heaven ACCORDING to works.

Go ahead and re-read it if you like.

What are you taking as the meaning of "according"? I believe Piper is using it as "in agreement with", that those who have a true faith will produce works in agreement with their faith.

Not as if the works produce salvation.

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Marv
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25 to 30 years ago a controversy erupted between proponents of "non-Lordship salvation" on the one hand (aka, "free grace theology") and "Lordship salvation" on the other hand. The chief proponents of the "non-Lordship" position at the time were Charles Ryrie and Zane Hodges. On the other side was John MacArthur (cf The Gospel According to Jesus). I believe that Vladimir is on the "non-Lordship" side of the argument. Piper would side with MacArthur.

An interesting discussion by Phil Johnson of the history of this controversy is available in MP3 format which may be found here: http://www.monergism.com/directory/sear ... +salvation

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

I am not in agreement with John Piper, if I understand him correctly. We accept salvation (forgiveness of sin) as a free undeserving and unconditional gift from God. The acceptance of that gift is not a work anymore then confessing Christ, repenting or being baptized are works.
The problem is we can give up the gift because it is truly ours, like Esau gave up his inheritance. To keep from getting to the point of not caring and giving up Gal. 6: 9 we need to stay busy. God has honored us with some wonderful “works”, He can actually do through us if we allow Him. This is our privilege and we can share in His glory, but really all the glory belongs to Him, we are just hanging around at the time.

Bling, you may differ from Piper, but your difference is not at the same point of disagreement as Vladimir's. If I understand Free Grace theology, Vlad would not agree with you either.

Regards.

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All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

B,
This should explain Free Grace in easy to understand terms. The last link is more academic. Piper emphasizes Grace and "Christian Hedonism" but when backed into a corner his semantics are classic (Five?) point Calvinism - Reformed as I understand it. I have listened to him preach and read some of his website. Free Grace has many dispensational roots, but has been around for a long time.

http://www.faithalone.org/sermons/freegrace.htm

http://www.faithalone.org/Sure/Default.htm

http://www.gracelife.org/resources/dissertation.asp

(the menu is on the right. You can still follow much without the fonts)

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Sorry, but I've given up trying to edit on this board .. So one PS:

S. Lewis Johnson was an admirer of both MacArthur and Hodges. He was instrumental in making Hodges head of new testament (Prof) at DTS. Hodges just recently died. This is from memory to the best of my recall.

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Regardless of what Piper says, here's what the Word of God says about how faith and deeds work together. Deeds are basically the "fruit" of our faith, the outward evidence of an inward relationship with Jesus Christ. There are many who simply pay "lip service" and claim to be Christians, but there is no fruit or evidence of such in their lives.

James 2:14-26:
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

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Blessings,
Lynn

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. 5For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows." (2 Corinthians 1:3-5, NIV)

So salvation is conditioned on our ability to keep the "free gift" of salvation? You believe in salvation by works.

Interesting that you followed that statement of your own thoughts. Why should we take your opinion as "the Word of God"? Moreover, why should we consider your opinion instead of Piper's? (By the way, I agree with your opinion).

Hey S., nice to see you here again! I thought everyone knew Piper was a Calvinist Baptist.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

Pbob wrote:
"Hey S., nice to see you here again! I thought everyone knew Piper was a Calvinist Baptist."

It's nice to see you again, my friend. Yes, I knew he was a continuationist, Baptist Calvinist, but there are different kinds of Calvinists. He's as old school hard core as they come. Chuck Swindoll is also a Calvinist, but his preaching and teaching is much more pleasant to my heretical free grace ears. Nobody rants against the words, "Free Grace" more violently than you, but you are an equal opportunity curmudgeon!
I bet your blood pressure just shot up fifty points. lol

I was going through some rough personal stuff and found myself lashing out at others here in a less than charitable, Christian way. So I took a break, came back, deleted my box unread, and am now even more convinced that "easy believism" represents the true gospel.
But we all have the right to take our own journey.

If the majority were right we would all be praying to Mary. Ok, I won't go there. Piper has some good, positive thoughts when he isn't preaching theology, but he's not exactly in my camp. What do YOU think of Piper?


Pax

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB