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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:15 am 
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Polycarp

The Last Successor and greatest student of the Apostles.

Direct disciple and student of St. John, the Divine, Apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He was the last of the First Century true Christian Church to die in the Second Century who studied directly under the last Apostle, John. He met with most of the Jerusalem Christians as well as many of the Apostles. Read what Polycarp wrote which makes it obvious he met with St. Paul.

Read: Revelation 2:8-11
Bishop of Smyrna, angel of Church of Smyrna, in Revelation

Polycarp's Background on BibleGateway.com
Revelation 2 - IVP New Testament Commentaries

In part:

"...The congregation at Smyrna, unlike the one at Ephesus, was facing persecution, imprisonment for some, even death. The heart of the message was not "repent," but be faithful, even to the point of death, and the command was reinforced not by a threat (as in 2:5), but by a promise: I will give you the crown of life (v. 10), matching the promises to those who "overcome" in all seven messages (compare v. 11). In the message to Smyrna, the angel is a "conquering" angel, and the Christians there a whole assembly of "conquerors..."

Do a search for him here on Bible.com for the many references to him.

He is claimed as a Saint of the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Catholic Church. Ironically he fought Roman heretic gnostics and Judizers such as Valentinus, Cerinthus, Quintus, and Marcion.
He was martyred in Rome by Pagan Rome with possible complicity of some heretic Romans of the Early Church.

Read about him also here:

Crossroad.to

and

Christian Classics Ethereal Library (CCEL)

POLYCARP

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus by Schaff, Philip
Early Christian Fathers by Richardson, Cyril C.

Introductory Note to the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to the Philippians
Chapter I.—Praise of the Philippians.
Chapter II.—An exhortation to virtue.
Chapter III.—Expressions of personal unworthiness.
Chapter IV.—Various exhortations.
Chapter V.—The duties of deacons, youths, and virgins.
Chapter VI.—The duties of presbyters and others.
Chapter VII.—Avoid the Docetæ, and persevere in fasting and prayer.
Chapter VIII.—Persevere in hope and patience.
Chapter IX.—Patience inculcated.
Chapter X.—Exhortation to the practice of virtue.
Chapter XI.—Expression of grief on account of Valens.
Chapter XII.—Exhortation to various graces.
Chapter XIII.—Concerning the transmission of epistles.
Chapter XIV.—Conclusion.
Introductory Note to the Martyrdom of Polycarp
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Chapter I.—Subject of which we write.
Chapter II.—The wonderful constancy of the martyrs.
Chapter III.—The constancy of Germanicus. The death of Polycarp is demanded.
Chapter IV.—Quintus the apostate.
Chapter V.—The departure and vision of Polycarp.
Chapter VI.—Polycarp is betrayed by a servant.
Chapter VII.—Polycarp is found by his pursuers.
Chapter VIII.—Polycarp is brought into the city.
Chapter IX.—Polycarp refuses to revile Christ.
Chapter X.—Polycarp confesses himself a Christian.
Chapter XI.—No threats have any effect on Polycarp.
Chapter XII.—Polycarp is sentenced to be burned.
Chapter XIII.—The funeral pile is erected.
Chapter XIV.—The prayer of Polycarp.
Chapter XV.—Polycarp is not injured by the fire.
Chapter XVI.—Polycarp is pierced by a dagger.
Chapter XVII.—The Christians are refused Polycarp’s body.
Chapter XVIII.—The body of Polycarp is burned.
Chapter XIX.—Praise of the martyr Polycarp.
Chapter XX.—This epistle is to be transmitted to the brethren.
Chapter XXI.—The date of the martyrdom.
Chapter XXII.—Salutation.

Other Books:

Polycarp," Revised Texts with Introductions, Notes, … form, The Martyrdom of Polycarp (Texts for Students, …listed in the Early Christian Fathers by Richardson, Cyril C.
INTRODUCTION At the time of his martyrdom, Polycarp… Testament writings. In these momentous issues Polycarp was … strange to say, our sources for the life of Polycarp...

The Johannine Writings by Schmiedel, Paul W.,
POLYCARP’S TEACHER IN EPHESUS: JOHN THE …the Apostle John, was Polycarp. But why does Irenaeus call Papias a
companion of Polycarp, unless it be because...


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:03 pm 
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I know this thread is dated, but I just happened to check in on this site and saw where someone posted recently.

When the Fathers at Nicea gathered to combat the Arian heresy, they gave us four marks or signs whereby we can identify Christ's Church. One of those signs is the fact that it is Apostolic. What does this mean? Perhaps I can help explain with the following illustration.

Do you recall in St. Matthew's Gospel he records for us the geneology of Jesus? It's a curious thing that the Gospel writer sought to include the names of judges, kings and prophets, as well as the names of some men who were really not that important. Some were in fact quite imperfect. But why did he do that? Perhaps one reason he included it is the same reason we have Apostolic succession. If someone challenged our Lord about Him being the chosen One, the One from the tribe of Judah, decedent from Abraham and the line of David, our Lord could simply point out His family tree and say "Here you go. Here's my tree. Here's my line."

The same can be said of the bishops of His Church. If your line of authority does not go back to Christ Himself, then your line is not but a branch fallen off the vine. For example, the bishop of my diocese is a man named David Choby. He was ordained a bishop in 2006 by Thomas Kelly, O.P. Thomas Kelly was ordained a bishop in 1977 by Joseph Cardinal Bernadin. Joseph Cardinal Bernadin was ordained a bishop in 1966 by Archbishop Paul Hallinan. Archbishop Paul Hallinan was ordained a bishop in 1958 by Amleto Giovanni Cardinal Cicognani. Amleto Giovanni Cardinal Cicognani was ordained a bishop in 1933 by Raffaele Carlo Cardinal Rossi. Raffaele Carlo Cardinal Rossi was ordained a bishop in 1920 by Gaetano Cardinal De Lai. Gaetano Cardinal De Lai was ordained a bishop by Giuseppe Melchiorre Sarto (Pope St. Pius X) in 1911 Giuseppe Melchiorre Sarto was ordained a bishop in 1884 by Lucido Maria Cardinal Parocchi. Lucido Maria Cardinal Parocchi was ordained a bishop in 1871 by Costantino Cardinal Patrizi Naro. This list can continue all the way to the Apostles.

Hopefully you get the picture I'm trying to paint. The bishops of today fullfill a similar function to that long line of geneology proving our Lord belonged to the royal line of David. The reason we know what the Christian faith is, is because our line of bishops goes back to Christ Himself. It is a historical fact that Jesus Christ lived and chose 12 men whom we call Apostles. It is also a historical fact these Apostles chose successors whom we call bishops. These bishops continue to exist today in the Catholic Church in an unbroken line of historical continuity.

God bless,
Campion
Feast of St. Athanasius (one of the Church's greatest bishops)

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Campion wrote:
It is a historical fact that Jesus Christ lived and chose 12 men whom we call Apostles. It is also a historical fact these Apostles chose successors whom we call bishops.
so whom did Judas appoint?

Campion wrote:
It's a curious thing that the Gospel writer sought to include the names of judges, kings and prophets, as well as the names of some men who were really not that important. Some were in fact quite imperfect. But why did he do that? Perhaps one reason he included it is the same reason we have Apostolic succession
it's not curious @ all & i doubt it has anything to do with what you assert but hey -- fulfilled prophecy is the main reason

Campion wrote:
If your line of authority does not go back to Christ Himself, then your line is not but a branch fallen off the vine
since you did not cite any Scriptural support for this position, let's chalk it up to being merely your opinion -- what matters is not who taught you or gave you your credentials but the doctrine you espouse -- if it jives with the Word, you're golden -- if it doesn't, a line (supposedly) traceable back to Jesus is irrelevant -- an example of this may be found in Paul's warning to the elders @ Ephesus

let's not forget the Lord's & Paul's rebuke of Peter or that James ran things in Acts 15

&, obviously, you are free to disagree with the above


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:04 am 
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Are you asking why Matthew included a genealogy at the start of his gospel? Or are you asking why the Holy Spirit inspired him to do so? Genealogies can be misused. See 1 Tim 1:4, Tit 3:9.

Readers of Matthew would mostly have been familiar with the idea that Christ would be of the seed(sperma) of Abraham. Interpreting "seed" to mean biological succession, a genealogy would make sense.

In what sense is the apostolic succession analogous to biological succession? Was Paul an apostle? Who laid hands on him?



Is the "seed of Christianity" not in the word of God? Is that not passed from one believer to the next by passing bible truth whether orally or in writing? If the teaching that I receive is from scripture, and is accurate, that is sufficient for me to know that I am not cut off from the vine. See 1 John 3:9, John 15:7.

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:19 am 
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Paco wrote:
so whom did Judas appoint?


Judas did not appoint anyone to succeed him, for as St. Luke tells us, "by transgression he fell away." (cf Acts 1:25) However, the Apostles did appoint Matthias to succeed Judas to "take the place of his ministry" and as St. Peter said, to fulfill the prophesy of Psalm 109:8, "and his bishopric let another take."

"And they gave them lot, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." (Acts 1:26)


Paco wrote:
it's not curious @ all & i doubt it has anything to do with what you assert but hey -- fulfilled prophecy is the main reason


Agreed. I was using it as an example of how Christians too have a lineage back to Christ.


Paco wrote:
since you did not cite any Scriptural support for this position, let's chalk it up to being merely your opinion -- what matters is not who taught you or gave you your credentials but the doctrine you espouse -- if it jives with the Word, you're golden -- if it doesn't, a line (supposedly) traceable back to Jesus is irrelevant -- an example of this may be found in Paul's warning to the elders @ Ephesus


Agreed in that what matters is the doctrine you espouse. Does your vine go back to the Apostles? If not, how can you be certain the doctrine you espouse is that of the Apostolic faith?

Our Blessed Lord also commended the Ephesians for rooting out those who were not Apostolic, going so far as to call them liars and to state he "hates" those who espouse heresy. (cf Rev 2:6)

"And you have tried them who say they are apostles and are not: and have found them liars." (Rev 2:2)


Paco wrote:
let's not forget the Lord's & Paul's rebuke of Peter or that James ran things in Acts 15

&, obviously, you are free to disagree with the above


I don't quite follow how Paul's rebuke of Peter has anything to do with the discussion. Paul was an Apostle (cf. 1 Cor 1:1). As for St. James' role at the Council of Jerusalem, again I do not follow the point you are trying to make. I can presume this is a charge against the primacy of St. Peter. If that is indeed your charge, the fact that St. James had a prominent role does not dismiss the authority of Peter. He was the bishop of the Church at Jerusalem so one expects him to have a leading role in the council. History also follows this model. I'll give one example to illustrate. Have you ever read any writings from any other ecumenical councils? One of the early councils was that of Ephesus in 431. This council dealt primarily with Nestorius, who was teaching a Christological error. At this council, all the bishops of the world were gathered, but the bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, took center stage at this council. That other bishops would take leading roles in Church councils is in fact quite ordinary and in no way disproves the primary of Peter.

Campion

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:37 am 
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Strider33 wrote:
Are you asking why Matthew included a genealogy at the start of his gospel? Or are you asking why the Holy Spirit inspired him to do so? Genealogies can be misused. See 1 Tim 1:4, Tit 3:9.


The genealogies St. Paul is speaking about to his young bishop, St. Timothy, is a reference to the Gnostic heresy. One of the doctrines of the Gnostics was a mythology of innumerable intermediaries, on a descending scale (“genealogies”), between God and the world. St. Paul references these "genealogies" and condemns them in in the verses you cite, 1 Tim 1:4 and Titus 3:9. He also takes another jab at the Gnostics in 1 Tim 6:20.


Strider33 wrote:
Readers of Matthew would mostly have been familiar with the idea that Christ would be of the seed(sperma) of Abraham. Interpreting "seed" to mean biological succession, a genealogy would make sense.

In what sense is the apostolic succession analogous to biological succession? Was Paul an apostle? Who laid hands on him?


I used the genealogy of Christ as an example, a parallel, to that of the genealogy we have in an actual historical link back to the Apostles by way of an unbroken line of historical continuity.

Yes, St. Paul was an Apostle. "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God" (1 Cor 1:1) and "Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead." (Gal 1:1)

Scripture confirms he was ordained. "And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas, for the work whereunto I have taken them. Then they fasting and praying and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away." (Acts 13:2-3)


Strider33 wrote:
Is the "seed of Christianity" not in the word of God? Is that not passed from one believer to the next by passing bible truth whether orally or in writing?


The Word of God is a Person, the Incarnate Logos.


Strider33 wrote:
If the teaching that I receive is from scripture, and is accurate, that is sufficient for me to know that I am not cut off from the vine. See 1 John 3:9, John 15:7.


The Judiazers, Gnostics, Docetists, Arians, Nestorians, Pelagians, Donatists, Marcion, Patarines, Waldensians, Mormons, etc. all also teach what they receive and believe is from Scripture, and is accurate and that they are not cut off from the vine.

Campion

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:59 am 
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Campion wrote:
Does your vine go back to the Apostles? If not, how can you be certain the doctrine you espouse is that of the Apostolic faith?
you miss the point -- my vine (& ALL Christians) goes back to the Holy Spirit that Indwells us & the Father that Drew us & the Lord Jesus who Died for & Saved us -- no mere man, Apostle or not, can top that -- so I find it odd that your subset of Christianity puts so much stock in Peter (& Mary, for that matter) @ the expense of God

the rest of the discussion would delve off topic so i'll leave them with you having the last word


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:02 am 
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Campion wrote:
The Judiazers, Gnostics, Docetists, Arians, Nestorians, Pelagians, Donatists, Marcion, Patarines, Waldensians, Mormons, etc. all also teach what they receive and believe is from Scripture, and is accurate and that they are not cut off from the vine
so what? -- clearly the Holy Spirit in you is able to help you discern what they espouse as Truth or not -- again, rely on God, not some supposedly historical link


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:07 am 
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Paco wrote:
you miss the point -- my vine (& ALL Christians) goes back to the Holy Spirit that Indwells us & the Father that Drew us & the Lord Jesus who Died for & Saved us -- no mere man, Apostle or not, can top that -- so I find it odd that your subset of Christianity puts so much stock in Peter (& Mary, for that matter) @ the expense of God


My guess is your vine goes back a couple hundred years, at most.


Paco wrote:
the rest of the discussion would delve off topic so i'll leave them with you having the last word



I have enjoyed the discussion. Best wishes to you.

Campion

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:18 am 
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Please brethren do not fail to read all about Polycarp.

He met with almost all of the Apostles. It is clear in some of his writings to other churches. He quoted both Peter, John, Paul and others using their of the Bible. Please do not get off the subject at hand, Apostolic succession.

The Apostles were reconciled after the James. Paul, Peter conference. Cephas (Peter) is mentioned by Paul and Peter by Paul after this incident. There is no disagreement amongst them in their teachings.

Stop what you are doing today except for reading the Scripture and read about this most important of all Bishops mentioned in Revelation of the only church fully approved by our Alpha and Omega. Read about his brave and miracle death. His story will humble you to the very core.

I have never been the same since I read of this Bishop. My faith and commitment strengthened!

Read what Polycarp exorts re: humility

Remember Satan uses our pride as his main weapon.

DO go to the accounts of him here on this bible.org, BibleGateway, the Christian Classics Ethereal Library and http://www.crossroad.to

Use their internal and external links of the search engines.

Part of the original post snips:

[quote="inhimalone"]Polycarp

The Last Successor and greatest student of the Apostles.

Direct disciple and student of St. John, the Divine, Apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He was the last of the First Century true Christian Church to die in the Second Century who studied directly under the last Apostle, John. He met with most of the Jerusalem Christians as well as many of the Apostles. Read what Polycarp wrote which makes it obvious he met with St. Paul.

Read: Revelation 2:8-11

Bishop of Smyrna, angel of Church of Smyrna, in Revelation


Polycarp's Background on http://www.BibleGateway.com

Revelation 2 - IVP New Testament Commentaries

Christian Classics Ethereal Library (CCEL) A MUST read of all these chapters!

POLYCARP: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus by Schaff, Philip
Early Christian Fathers by Richardson, Cyril C.

POLYCARP (The Final and most important of student of the Apostles)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:06 am 
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In Eusebius' ecclesiastical history he lists bishops for Jerusalem, Antioch and Rome all of which he traces back to the apostles. Now later during the reformation, men like Luther and Calvin argued against apostolic succession by emphasizing doctrinal succession.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:41 pm 
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The true and immediate apostolic continuity relates to 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude).

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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:28 am 
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basically, it can ONLY be "proven" by catholic tradition, as they hold to tradition as being equal to the scriptures ...

the Bible states that the foundation of the Apostles/prophets ALREADY has been laid, so NO need to have that Apostolic Succession, as the bible contains the "faith once and for all delivered to the saints!"


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:32 am 
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I think you got my meaning from my post, above.

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Read the Bible prayerfully.For a wealth of sound theology, go to John 3:16.
(My wife and I are very much in love, by the way.)
I don't like extremes of temperature. I don't like extremes among preachers. People maybe think I'm extreme.But never mind about me
A true Christian is different, and the world will notice the difference.Even your tattoo, if it's faith related, it's different!


Last edited by Gideon on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Removed quote of the entire immediately preceding post as redundant.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostolic succession
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:54 am 
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I remember reading some where that the Reformers who were challenged with this question by the Roman Catholic Church; they said it was not apostolic succession but doctrinal succession which was important.


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