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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:56 pm 
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My ignorant question one more time: if the hebrew language has no capital letters, how a god and God is differentiated? Specially in singular.


Last edited by Gideon on Wed May 02, 2012 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Modified thread title for clarity


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:57 pm 
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In the Pentateuch this term primarily takes the prefixed article ה to demonstrate definiteness, though elsewhere it stands alone and is simply understood as an appellative. The best indicator is always context...especially if your question is about other "gods" or about the one true God. There really is no regularly used indicator (that I know of) to differentiate usage beyond context and every once in a while the context is ambiguous (eg, Dan. 3:25; 4:8; numbered 4:5 in the Hebrew text).

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Hey, Baagii.

Normally the plural form אֱלֹהִים takes singular verbs when referring to God and plural verbs when referring to gods, but there are exceptions.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:22 am 
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The same question could be asked about John 1:1, even though this may have originally been written in Greek. Greek did not have capital letters either.

Interestingly enough, where my bible has "and the Word was God", the JW bible has "and the Word was a god". The use or absence of the indefinite article conveys something quite different in English and in Greek. At least, that's what Greek scholars tell me.

The NET bible shows "and the Word was fully God". That's the first time I've seen the adverb "fully" in there.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:14 am 
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So it appears the way to see the difference is:

1. see if the verb is plural (hoping the mentioned exceptions are rare)
2. check context.

Then comes a new image:

Strider33 wrote:
The same question could be asked about <a href="javascript:{}" class="NETBibleTagged">John 1:1</a>, even though this may have originally been written in Greek. Greek did not have capital letters either.
If Greek did not have capitals, then the new testament was written without capitals.

So, it can be concluded the whole Bible was written initially without capitals.

I wonder how Arab, Chinese, Japanese, Indian (Hindu), Korean bibles make the difference. They have no capital letter.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:11 am 
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Antipater wrote:
In the Pentateuch this term primarily takes the prefixed article ה to demonstrate definiteness, though elsewhere it stands alone and is simply understood as an appellative. The best indicator is always context...especially if your question is about other "gods" or about the one true God. There really is no regularly used indicator (that I know of) to differentiate usage beyond context and every once in a while the context is ambiguous (eg, Dan. 3:25; 4:8; numbered 4:5 in the Hebrew text).



First, Dan. 3:25; 4:8 are not ambiguous and they are not Hebrew. This portion of Daniel is written in Aramaic and while the words are similar to Hebrew i.e. אלהים\אלהין they are used differently i.e. in Aramaic the plural form is always plural. Using the plural form אלהים to refer to the singular God is unique to Hebrew, it is not a common Semitic feature. Additionally, theses examples from Daniel do not have an article (which would be a suffixed א in Aramaic).

Second, the article in Hebrew doesn't help to differentiate between references to "gods" or "God." One can speak of "the gods" which is both plural and definite. For example, Judges 10:14 includes the article and is translated (based on context) "Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!"


Obadiah's method is probably the best method for using grammar to determine whether "God" or "gods" is intended in a text. In biblical Hebrew, the words "elohim" and "adonai" are both plural and when they are the subject of 3rd person singular verb then these refer to "God." This is a very unique feature of biblical Hebrew that does not exist in other Semitic languages. The exceptions where plural verbs are used with the plural subject "elohim" refer to the singular "God" are extremely rare and the context in these passages makes the distinction clear. Ge. 1:26 is the best example of such an exception. It begins by following the normal pattern of using the plural "elohim" used with the 3rd person singular verb i.e. "And God (plural) said (3rd person singular)" but then continues one with a plural verb and a couple of plural declensions i.e. "we will make", "in our image", "in our likeness." This feature in this verse is so unusual that it has sparked volumes of commentary over the ages.

It should be noted that when God is referenced by singular nouns like "el", "eloah", etc..., it is the context alone that tells us who is being referenced. And when "elohim" is the object of the verb rather than the subject, the context itself is the only determining factor on whether the translation should read "God" or "gods" in a few cases in Scripture there is some ambiguity about which was intended.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:01 am 
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Benelchi,
It is interesting to me that you both rejected what I had stated and then turned around and restated part of it. Further, by "context" I am speaking of the syntactic context as well as literary.

For the sake of Baagii I was trying to keep things simplified (which is ALWAYS a problem when discussing languages) and had actually written three different posts (all of which were longer), before determining to just state what I did. My examples from Daniel were simply intended as ambiguous terms (see the various translations for this despite your claims to the contrary) where the Aramaic is indeed representative of what can happen in Hebrew. (My reference to the "Hebrew text" with regard to Daniel was to the verse enumeration which differs from most English translations and not the language usage). I realize that the post I ended up offering I apparently deleted my comments about wondering just what Baagii was asking...whether about definiteness or about the deity of reference. Thus, my initial sentence deals with the issue of definiteness and not simply the question of what deity is being referred to.

Thank you for your comments anyways. I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Baagii,
The Greek was originally entirely written in uncials (or capitals if you will). Hebrew does not have such a notion. However, written languages seem to have some way to differentiate definiteness fairly clearly in most circumstances. Sometimes it is a matter of something prefixed to the noun, or in the case of proper nouns they are automatically definite.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:30 am 
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Antipater wrote:
My examples from Daniel were simply intended as ambiguous terms (see the various translations for this despite your claims to the contrary) where the Aramaic is indeed representative of what can happen in Hebrew.


Actually, the modern translations that treat this as singular, do so because of the singular reference of "theou" in the LXX and not because of a belief that the Aramaic plural can be treated as a singular. The treatment of the Aramaic plural as a singular noun has long been considered one of the significant mistakes of the KJV translators. Additionally, as I pointed out these example are not not definite, there is no article. I really do not believe a valid argument can be made for concluding that these references are "ambiguous" based on the Aramaic text alone. One may argue for ambiguity based on vorlage of the Aramaic text that is now represented in the LXX but that argument doesn't question the grammatical usage present in the Aramaic text of Daniel that we now have in our possession.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:40 am 
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I am following John Goldingay (WBC "Daniel" p.80) who also proposes the ambiguity given both the speaker and the author/reader and their respective orientations with regard to such a term. He also defends the plural form for a singular reading by reference to a similar form and function in Akkadian. I understand your argument, but see the Theodotion reading as representative of the Jewish reading of the Aramaic without regard simply to some other specific Vorlage behind this particular text (even though the Theodotion obviously uses or knows a significantly different text overall than the one before us as preserved by the Masoretes). IOW, this is not me basing anything upon the KJV. Several translations have such a reading in the footnotes (see ESV and NAU, and the actual text of NAB). Given the brevity of occurences in the Biblical corpus and the fact that almost all of them overlap in usage...I'm not sure how you could conclude that it is unambiguous. :?: Extrabiblical usage is only helpful in establishing possibility and not actual function (if you are in fact referencing extra-biblical usage as the basis for your argument).

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Strider33 wrote:
Interestingly enough, where my bible has "and the Word was God", the JW bible has "and the Word was a god". The use or absence of the indefinite article conveys something quite different in English and in Greek. At least, that's what Greek scholars tell me.

The NET bible shows "and the Word was fully God". That's the first time I've seen the adverb "fully" in there.

This is getting off topic, but Greek has no indefinite article. Anarthrous nouns in Greek (those used without a definite article) are often translated into English together with an indefinite article, but not always. Every legitimate Greek scholar I've read agrees that translating the anarthrous theos in John 1:1 as "a god" (as the NWT does) is illegitimate. On the other hand, I think the NET rendition of that verse does a good job of conveying the significance of the anarthrous noun there. And I think the NET notes on that point are helpful:

Quote:
tn Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (theos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father.

sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.

This particular subject has been previously discussed here.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:23 am 
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Gideon,

Interesting.

The original question asked about Hebrew, but the particular differntiation asked about begged a side discussion of Greek. The discussion you referenced is interesting but locked.
Should I start a new discussion if I want to discuss the same differentiation in Greek?

I accept your statement that Greek has no indefinite article. How about Hebrew?

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:17 am 
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Hebrew is also without an indefinite article.


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Are there any passages in the OT where a word might have been rendered "God" or "a god" by different translators?

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:03 pm 
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For a difference between "God" and "heavenly beings", see Psalm 8:5 (compare NASB, NET).

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Strider33 wrote:
Should I start a new discussion if I want to discuss the same differentiation in Greek?

Strider, if what you want to discuss was not covered in the old (now locked) thread, please feel free to start a new topic.

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