The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

the Septuagint of Amos 7:1 is the version that makes the most sense to me -- any that have "king's mowings" prompts &

odd that it's in the minority

Is America mentioned in the Bible at all? There are cities and regions and nations that are mentioned as functioning in the end times--therefore prophetic to where we are right now in the time line.

The Word continually talks about Israel and the city of Jerusalem. Israel/Jerusalem are mentioned in end-time prophecies and many are prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.

Then there are the nations that would be considered either neighbors or close to the land of Israel: Syria, Egypt, Ethiopia, etc. These nations and others we recognize today are mentioned by name in end-time prophecy. However, America, USA, United States, the American continent is not mentioned by name--at least not in any of the Bible versions I have read to date.

Before I move on, I want to bring up a thought that was touched on by ntech about America not being a known nation at the time of either the Old or New Testament, so therefore the prophets would not have known or been able to speak about America by name.

Though a prophet himself would have no ability to reveal future events nor names of countries/continents not at that time in existence, it is not at all a difficult thing for God to do just that through a prophet. God says of Himself that He knows the end before the beginning. An example would be the Isaiah 45 prophecy written about a man named Cyrus who was not yet born. Not only was the name, Cyrus, accurate; the prophecy regarding his defeat of Babylon and his allowing Jews to return to Jerusalem was also spot on.

The point is that if God had desired to mention by name in the Bible the USA or Cuba or Brazil or Canada or Greenland, etc, He could have very easily done so.

Some claim that America is mysteriously visible as related to Tarshish; some tie America to the eagle which is our symbol; and others have called us Babylon. (Ezekiel 38:13; Rev. 17:1-2; Rev. 12:13-14) Stretching any of these to mean America requires a loose interpretation, if not a creative bent.

The Old Testament portion of the Bible was written about the Hebrews, their being chosen by God, and His short- and long-range plans for them as individuals, clans, and tribes--as a people and as a nation. As He takes us through Jewish history, those nations or cities interacting with Israel are mentioned. The New Testament covers what was basically invisible at the time the Old Testament was written: the Church Age and God’s interaction by grace through faith with the Gentiles during our current time.

Every country will stand before God to be judged. He will sort them into sheep (what you want to be) and goat (what you really don’t want to be) nations. In that respect all nations are impacted by prophecy. My reading of the Word is that Christians will already be with the Lord when this judgment occurs.

Have you ever noticed that the name of a nation can stay the same, but the government has changed so much it doesn’t resemble what you knew it as. If you have traveled in the Middle East you would have watched Lebanon go from a beautiful, graceful, relaxed, mostly Christian country to a dangerous, war-torn, mostly Muslim country.

The same would hold true for Cuba. My grandmother and grandfather took their honeymoon in Cuba--a paradise in the semi-tropics. It was safe. It was pleasant. People were friendly and at ease. And although Cuba still exists by that name today, the culture/sociology is vastly different.

This would apply to the Israel of today, also. Compare the time the judges and kings began ruling Israel through the time of 70 AD Israel with the Israel of today. There is very little resemblance culturally. However, Ezekiel talks about the Jews coming home being very secular, being joined together as a nation, then the the Spirit of God breathing real life into them. God had Ezekiel writing about the time we are seeing today; but the people back then could not envision what life would be like in Israel today.

The same type of thing was true of Daniel’s prophecies, as he could not fathom how what he was seeing and recording then could come to pass. Yet God knew, and the words that Daniel faithfully recorded--even though he wrote the words he was given,his (Daniel's) understanding was limited. However, Daniel's delivery of what God gave to him as an oracle of God was accurate.

So one way we know that America is mentioned has to do with the fact that ALL nations will come under judgment as to sheep or goat. After that, it gets more difficult to know for certain, in my opinion.




_________________
Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

It seems to me you are playing fast-and-loose with the term "nations" from the Scripture in a way not original to the text, but belonging to our own era's usage. This would impact at least some of your interpretation I believe. Though certainly the whole world will fall under the judgment and lordship of Jesus.

_________________
Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
Forum Code of Conduct
Bible.org Doctrinal Statement
rickwadholmjr.wordpress.com
iheartbarth.wordpress.com
bluechippastor.org
Twitter: @RickWadholmJr

Antipater, please explain the fast and loose part in greater detail. I would like to understand what you are saying, but I don't. For sure, none of us should be playing fast and loose with anything of God. Please spell this out for me. Thanks!

_________________
Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

"Nations" did not carry the same geo-political notions of our own era. To apply such notions to the interpretation of Scripture is to play "fast-and-loose" with them IMO. I would add...that the most basic error I was noting was with regard to making "nations" mean "nation-state" or some such contemporary thing in the account of the sheep and goats from Matthew.

_________________
Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
Forum Code of Conduct
Bible.org Doctrinal Statement
rickwadholmjr.wordpress.com
iheartbarth.wordpress.com
bluechippastor.org
Twitter: @RickWadholmJr

Antipater, I appreciate your answer, but I still do not understand. Egypt was a nation/country during both OT and NT times. It is still a country today.

Tell me what your interpretation is and how it varies from mine. "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Mt. 25:32-33 KJV

If you are trying to say that during the centuries boarders have changed, governance has changed, culture has changed, and who a people worships has changed--I agree. Just look at the US in the last 100 years. Our territory has increased, our states have lost power, and according to our current president we are not a Christian nation. But how do all these changes alter the Matthew 25 Scripture. God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations.

Please take one more stab at helping me "get" what you are saying.

_________________
Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

You've wrongly interpreted the passage IMHO. (Emphasis mine)

It is not the nations God is seperating but the individual people of those nations.

_________________
Blessings,
Randy
Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The Net Bible Online

I dunno. Lots of dead Arabs might disagree.

_________________
"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State;
Ronald Reagan

In support of Randy's take I would note that the pronoun for 'them' is masculine while the word for 'nations' is neuter. The concordatio ad sensum (agreement of the pronoun's gender to the concept of the antecedent rather than its form) tells me that 'the nations' here refers to the people (aka 'the Gentiles') in them rather than to nations as political entities.

Nice to hear from you all. I'm sorry I don't have time to respond, but I do NOT read Mt. 25 as judging individuals, but nations.

Are you thinking that this correlates to the Great White Throne Judgment?
Are you assuming that the dead have been brought out of their graves and are being judged here also?
Are you thinking that this is the judgment where the Books are opened?


Sorry I can't get into this now. I've got Church until service finishes later tonight. If I don't have people needing to talk afterwards, I might be able to get to this tonight. If not, I will when I can.

_________________
Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

so do lotsa dead Nazis heap judgment on the Allies?

do you deny Israel has exhibited restraint in their retaliation? -- & just how many wars has Israel begun?

Unless otherwise stated all quotes in this post are NKJV. In a 10-31-11 post about whether American appears in Bible prophecy, I referred to Mt. 25:31-33. A portion of that says “All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another...” The statement has been made that God is actually judging and separating people rather than nations into sheep and goats--two groups, one blessed, the other banished. The statement suggests that the word NATION actually means individuals, and does not mean NATIONS. Let’s spend a few minutes to see if nations are mentioned anywhere else in Scripture as being judged.

Obadiah 1:10, 15 “For violence against your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. For THE DAY OF THE LORD UPON ALL NATIONS is near. As you [the nations] have done it shall be done to you; your reprisal shall return upon your own head.”

In Obadiah it is the nation of Edom that is being judged. The last five verses starting with verse 17 contrast the triumph of Jacob/Israel as compared to the defeat of Esau/Edom.

Where else does God talk about judging nations as a whole people rather than individuals?

Psalms. “He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son, today I have begotten You, ask of Me, and I will give you the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. (Psalm 2:4-9)

Psalm 2:4-9 is important because it shows that Jesus will be given the nations by His Father, Jesus being the King the Father sets in Jerusalem. When the Father says that His Son will break the nations with a rod of iron, it makes sense to me that this comes about as a result of separating those nations He wishes to have in His earthly kingdom.

There is another Scripture that refers to the time after Tribulation when Jesus has come to rule the world from Jerusalem, establishing the Kingdom of God on earth. Zechariah 14:16, 18 “And it shall come to pass [that] everyone who is left of all the NATIONS which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King [Jesus], the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. If the family of EGYPT will not come up and enter in, they [shall have] no [rain]; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD STRIKES THE NATIONS who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

Much of the Book of Isaiah describes God judging nations as a whole, not as individuals. In Isaiah 14:28-32 God judges Philistia. Read it all, but notice these phrases pulled from there: Do not rejoice, Philistia, I will kill your roots with famine, wail, all you of Philistia are dissolved, the LORD has founded Zion.

Regarding the nation of Assyria, Isaiah 14:24-27 wrote regarding the LORD’s destruction of it. One of the phrases from these verses is, “And this is the hand [God’s hand] that is stretched out over all the nations.”

Isaiah continues giving God’s proclamations against nation after nation. By the time Isaiah reaches chapter 24, God is talking about the whole earth. Verse 6 says, “Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, and those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.”

These examples are given to show that God does indeed judge cities, nations, and the whole earth. There are many, many more examples. The Matthew 25:31-32 judgment occurs after Jesus comes and sits on the throne of His glory. This is NOT the throne of judgment that is in the air, the White Throne Judgment, when each man is judged individually.

Sodom: In Genesis 18-19 we have the story of Lot and the warning God gave regarding Sodom and Gomorrah--a kindness to Abraham because his nephew Lot lived in the area. With the exception of Lot, his wife, and two daughters, God judged the city.

In Rev. 18:4 a similar warning is issued. “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues...8...And she [Babylon] will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.’” Read on through Rev. 19 and you will see that Jesus “judges and makes war” in 19:11.

I believe that both individuals AND nations are judged, as both are described in various places in the Word. Even after the Millennium and after the creation of a new Heaven and New Earth God is still talking about BOTH nations and individual people. Rev. 21:24: “And the NATIONS of those who are saved [PEOPLE] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it [New Jerusalem].

This post was to show that God does indeed judge nations--and for the Topic we are in, that means that America will be put into either sheep or goats status. I could write IMHO after almost every statement I make, but as this is a discussion, each of us is obviously expressing what we believe to be correct and accurate. So HUMBLY I present my viewpoint of what God is saying in His Word.

God willing, the next post I do will talk about the meaning of NATIONS in both the Hebrew and Greek, and even the pronouns being used. This ought to thrill those among us who love dictionaries and grammars. God does make all of us unique, doesn’t He.

_________________
Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

You are still reading into the context of Scripture a modern notion of "nation" instead of the variety of meanings ("Gentiles", "everyone", "specific people groups", etc.) even found in the citations you've provided Pam. Citing passages which translate as "nations" does not make your case...you actually need to interact with each occurrence (as Obadiah did concerning Matthew 25) in its contextual usage. You simply cannot read your concept of "nation" into any use of the term in a translation of "nation".

_________________
Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
Forum Code of Conduct
Bible.org Doctrinal Statement
rickwadholmjr.wordpress.com
iheartbarth.wordpress.com
bluechippastor.org
Twitter: @RickWadholmJr

So you say, Antipater. First I wanted to show that NATION did mean exactly that in many Scriptures--and the OT's understanding of NATION seems to match up just fine with what I and the translations I've read mean by NATION. I see this exactly opposite of what you are saying. It seems to me that you are the one with the "modern" interpretation of NATION. If you have time, check back tomorrow, or possibly Saturday. I have just put in a 14-hour day Wednesday and a 12-hour day today, and I've got to get some rest. Nevertheless, what we do on this site is important also. So, as soon as I can squeeze in the time, I'll respond.

One thing I won't be saying tomorrow, though, because of the number of words it is going to take to respond is this: The Bible was written for the COMMON MAN. The vast majority of the time I believe the Word says what it means--of course, the thoughts run through 66 books, so it's not just a matter of finding a verse and saying this is it. If what we believe the Word is saying requires a re-write of what we have been reading for centuries, I'm going to lean toward the tried-and-true rather than the fresh-and-new.

It doesn't take a double Ph.D to understand what it is saying. Since the Holy Spirit resides in us and we are being guided by the Teacher, the Word by necessity must become more and more clear as He continues to teach us. I'm not questioning your salvation, your intelligence, nor your sincerity. We just disagree on this issue.

I will do by best to defend what I believe it says, and I look forward to many other posters joining the discussion until we do find the solid foundation of God's Truth--whichever way it goes. I promise I will not get offended or riled up or confrontational. You have the right to believe what you believe, as do I. The point is, though, if we can discuss and thoroughly look at this issue without turning it into a competition, I believe we might all end up seeing this more clearly.

Talk to you soon.

_________________
Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

The problem is not with "nations" as the translation so much as your interpretation of what "nations" means. You are right that it doesn't take advanced degrees to get this, but neither is the Scripture written originally for YOU. It was written a world apart from our time and place. While we understand the Scriptures to speak to our situation, this requires that we actually discern what the text meant (prior to what it means). Being written for the "common man" does not mean it was simplistic. In fact, the Scriptures are immensely complex and written with (at times) a keen eye demanding immensely careful reflection.

I would ask (for my sake as well as others who would like to be part of the conversation) that you actually find ways to say what you need without even coming close to the word limit. If this is not possible than I doubt there will be much room (no pun intended) for discussion. It proves more fruitful to get to the point (IMO).

_________________
Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
Forum Code of Conduct
Bible.org Doctrinal Statement
rickwadholmjr.wordpress.com
iheartbarth.wordpress.com
bluechippastor.org
Twitter: @RickWadholmJr