The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

Hello,

Sorry here. Have posted fairly long letters TWICE now, and they have not taken.

So will keep this one short, just to see, if nothing else - - if it takes.

Answer first, to Kolabok21:
I consider Fluff, to be - - stuff that has no substance. Stuff to be substance, with no - from a flawed perspective... For instance, a quote from some 2000 year old author - - that others have already shown started a cult, etc. Has some substance, in other words, but - - no real bite.
and Kolabok21. Will go through, quickly, the Scripture in question.
First off, I agree - - in part - - with Samuelbb7, in what he said. Here is what he said.
The Man Child is Jesus. He was taken up to heaven. The church Israel (I actually like how he sort of combined the two in that comment) is often referred to as a woman. Twelve stars, twelve tribes, and twelve apostles. Easy pattern.

Where I differ, is as follows. The Easy pattern he is showing there, does not totally solve the problem we have before us. It seems to match - - yet, does not fill in all the blanks, you might say.
However, if you combine and or expand this above parallel, where it is the Church/Israel for whom Christ is coming - - as Samuel did... (that is a plus, plus) with - - a couple of other plusses, we end up filling up all the blanks.

Verses in order.
1. Great Wonder = Virgo in 1999 (the Start of things, End Times)
2. Virgo plus the Faithful, plus possibly all nature in view.
3. Draco. (Sign, and Timing again) plus 4th beast, either when formed, or when Satan cast out.
4. Same as 3. plus his intent, to devour woman's child.
5. She will be delivered (Church), did deliver the Messiah.(Israel) Jesus was/is.
6. Woman fled (to Egypt) Now to America (fled again)
7. Timing issue again. I think this is when the Draco sign will be.

Now looking for substance - - here is what I have, in short. I have a LOT of stuff, but not all of it is truly relevant. BUT - - I have a LOT of stuff that points to 1999 - - and - - this approach - - fills in the blanks. i.e. this Great Sign stuff - - is relevant in my interpretation, where - - in the standard interpretation, it is sort of just totally not really making sense. Is taken to almost be Mystic ramblings.
I think that John actually SAW this stuff - - . A Woman, and a great sign in heaven, and - - all this stuff, and he wrote it down as well as he could... and - - it made little sense to him, or to us also.... until it could be actually seen.

As for total proof, I think that we will have to wait until the curtain starts to go down, or when the stars go out - - to be able to confirm I have it right... but - - I am patient.

Now. Let me see if this will go in.

Bert

you said correctly,




Either you are joking here or insulting, I'm not sure of which. Further IMO you belittle a lot of will renounce scholars who have put in a great many years of service to further our understanding of Revelation. Granted, the book of Revelation is in a unique genre in the N.T., but alas my mystical rambler, it in its own right share many O.T. allusions to the apocalyptic Jewish genre language in the Old Testament. What John saw, was what he could see in his horizon, yet that horizon is still in our view today. To say the woman is the Church, IMO is a little premature, for it is Israel as John would reckon it to his audience, they (Jewish converts & yes gentiles) would be aware of all the significance of the symbolism and allusions john presents to his readers of that day and to this very day, when we interpret and let scripture interpret itself.
Everyone has an opinion and I respect that, but when it boarders on simplicity then I’ll need to move on, nothing more to say here.

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Hello Kolabok21,

Sorry for the lack of data. As I had indicated, in my last post - - I had posted 2 previous LONG letters, and the board had not managed to get them up,- - so - - I just posted that short one.

But instead of questioning, you . So - - I guess that is OK? Tis OK with me. Have a good trip.

But will try to add a few now.

All of our - - theories about eschatology - - are actually frameworks, in my opinion, something like an Erector set.
The Bible, contains the pieces we all used. Each is given, the same set, but - - the directions are missing. Just pieces, is what we have.
So I pretend, that what is to be created is a Ferris Wheel.... Helps, when I think of it like that.

And the first, honorable men, created their first Ferris Wheel attempt, back in 100-400 AD. It is typically what we know of as Preterism. To creat their Ferris Wheel - - they used the "Historic" understandings that the Jews had, on Daniel - - and then added a few more pieces - - typically from Revelation 20 and on. Then they set this creation, whereby they used perhaps 10 chapters out of the Bible... and - - that is their Framework... or their Ferris Wheel. And it is put in the window of their churches, and - - - - all since students - - - tamper with it slightly - - but dare not broach a true attack against it.. End conclusions drawn by their creation, is - - - - - one will NEVER know - - when Christ will come back, and - - the Church will grow, and rule the world - - then hand over their rulership to the Messiah - - when he comes back. Any thought contrary to this, is bad.

The next TRUE attempt at this Ferris Wheel, was by the Protestants. They used the same "Historic" understandings that the Preterists used, with only about one minor change in Daniel 9. Then they, in short - - assigned to the RCC any terrible curse out of Revelation. So in a sense, they used MORE pieces, but - - - - then again - - - - Historic Post Trib Protestantism has been replaced now with a Pre-Trib Protestantism..
So in a sense - - - I would say both of these use - - 5 chapters from Daniel, and a few others that are scattered, and then perhaps a bit more out of Revelation. Total used, is perhaps 15 chapters.

So their Ferris Wheel, is a bit more developed. Has more pieces, that are effectively used, but - - are many contradictions also, that do not quite fit well. In a few places, it is almost as though they bent a few pieces, in order to force them to fit. (at least this is how I view it.) Will mention 2 Thes. Chapter 2, where it gives a system of order... quite plainly - - , as to how things are supposed to happen. FIRST comes, the falling away, and THEN the Anti-Christ, and THEN Christ.

So when I speak of - - the Woman, and I say that 1999 was when she was first observed - - what you might keep in mind, is this. In MY eschatology - - I tore up what the Jewish people gave us to start with, and re-did it, so that it was consistant with the rest of the Bible. Then I pulled in Revelation, from Seals through Maps, first re-doing the Matthew 24 series, along with quite a bit other stuff. Then when I was done, I stood there for a bit, looking at my Ferris Wheel - - then walked away. In a bit, I came back, and the Ferris Wheel was turning.

Back to this section. Virgo was seen... then things started heating up.

Now in my eschatology - - - skipping a verse, is a sin, virtually. It will give a quite imcorrect answer. Picking verse 5 of this section, and saying - - yes, it is Jesus - - in part, while correct, also contains error in that the entire section is speaking about what is going to happen during that time period, and what the GREAT SIGNS are. Having or hitting one verse, out of context, picked out of the middle - is a bit weak. And I really did like how Samuelbb7 finally put it by saying Israel/Church...

Anyway, I need to get off of here. Have a good long trip kolabok21.

Bert

Bert,
I’ll tell you what, let’s try this again. I do not want to appear as being dogmatic and not engaging anyone in an irenic fashion. Secondly, there is not a whole lot of new material coming on the forum lately, so maybe we can start from the beginning of Revelation and journey through it before we draw any conclusions. I will confess up front several things.

1. Revelation holds 3 foundational truths not matter what view anyone holds too, maybe even if some hold to a non-canonical status.

a.) Christ is exalted and acknowledged as the victor, before the throne room of God before the faithful witness’s that preserve unto the end, even to death itself “Oh death where is thou sting”. And before the dominions of the earth and their representative Satan. This is the Light and dark, evil and good and final defeat.

b.) We are called, (those that hear the Sheppard’s voice [think gospel of John] and obey God as we are commanded to do. To be the faithful witness unto the world, to bring the gospel out of our hearts to the hearts of those you would not hear, (he you has ears let him “M/F” hear) that impending judgment from the lion of the tribe of Judah is forthcoming, even unto the last bowel judgment, whether literal or figuratively, the fact remains Gods divine justice will consume all that is in opposition to his will.

c.) And thirdly, of which of the former & latter some has already been spoken of but necessary to empathize again. This Heaven and earth will be consumed with God’s rightly administered justice to an unjust world & people who rebel in their hearts against the glory of God and the victory of the Slain Lamb Jesus Christ. I believe as a side note, most today in our societies especially here in the West with the younger generation 18-29 range see in revelation a mystery that for all intent and purpose remains a mystery. For one it shows not love & compassion in the sense that we normal associate with Jesus through the gospels and epistle’s of Paul. But rather defeat and victory and persecution of the faithful.

You see John was giving hope to all that embraced the fledgling Church (yes I said Church) and the followers of the lamb, Jesus Christ. And yet some of the most horrendous acts against the believers were yet to come from the roman government and military might of that dominion of man. So how you want to construct your Ferris wheel is fine, but let’s do this with thoughtful and exegetical purpose. As I said before there as been a many worthy scholar of the bible that has put in many hours, (more than us combined) to arrive at their interpretation, let us respect that and see what can be gleaned from it as we discover our own view of Revelation. I IMO believe we should keep John’s vision in perspective, let me explain, if I may. It is like with Daniel his vision was distant not yet alas with John it is soon. We should understand John is recording what he can see to his horizon and yet that horizon extends down through the ages with each new generation that comes to the book of Revelation waiting for the finality and consummation of God’s redemptive plan for his creation.
In Christ, amen
Bryant

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Hello Kalabok21

Yes, I might change the greeting to Bryant, but - - do not feel comfortable with that yet.


You propose - - going all the way through Revelation? I would say - - - - ouch. That is a LOT of typing/data/pieces to cover. And time, for me - - is a bit short. Is probably a bit sort for you, also. Summer MUST be coming, someday here. And that reminds me of one of my favorite movies. The Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe. This winter, in the Midwest has been as though we walked through the back of the Wardrobe, and - - the door closed, and the Winter Witch keeps snowing on us.
but the point is - - spring SHALL come, and - - - I will then get busy here. Will have trouble maintaining a Detailed and LONG conversation.

In response to your three points - - - - about what Revelation is about - - - - I would add a couple thoughts if you will. Perhaps they are implied within your three points, but - - I think it is necessary to plainly say them/it.

1. There is a BLESSING to all that read this book, and - - understand the order of it. A HUGE blessing.
2. The book was written, as you say, for a specific purpose in mind, and several general purposes. On second thought, it actually might be written with several secific purposes in mind. As you say, it was written so that it might give the Christian hope, during the time of troubles, (specifically just after John's time) and in general, down through the ages... but - - - - saying that, does not preclude the statement which would say that there is a more specific view in mind - - which would be the End of the AGE.
As an example, a Wife and Mother might warn her children not to play near the Highway. (no specific car in mind - - just thinking that it might be a dangerous thing to do.)

A GOD however, if giving the same warning, in written form, for his children - - might warn all his kids to stay off the highway - - yet have a specific car in mind, and might know WHEN this car might go off the highway. He might then also warn about the date, and the color of the car, etc, in a somewhat indefinate way. Yet he would be unable to clearly WARN with the dates/etc., included, as if he was clear on that - - his kids, from 0--1900 AD would probably just see that the trouble is WAY in the future, so - - they might actually try to PLAY on the highway. So he would be forced to speak in symbolism, and metaphores so that - - the warning is not clearly understood, by the kids down through the ages. This would serve his purpose, in two ways.
The kids - - for 2000 years, would not fully understand his warnings - - yet would be able to pick out that it is dangerous to live too close to a highway. Hence his first purpose would be fulfilled. Yet - - he still needs to specifically warn about the Dangerous times. So he could and would include when Automobiles become invented - - in a way, that could be understood - - in later times.


I mention this, because, typically speaking - - - - We Today, would then of necessity - - need to open our eyes as to current events - - in order to see if the world today - - is giving us the template or the pattern for designing our Ferris Wheel. Without Directions, or without Helps, it is quite impossible, I believe, to - - actually straighten out this mess. But by defination - - we are bringing in information that the Ancients did not have - and this will be a sticking point for you, I fear.

If you wish to limit the input data - - I might agree to that. For instance, It must be information that is readily available to one and all, and quite noticable to one who watches. i.e. no secret and poorly understood, and questionable input data is - - or piece - - can be put in a vital place. What I am thinking of here, is data from Chronologists can be used for a confirming piece or a splint, but - - it can not be the VITAL piece that holds the chairs to the Ferris Wheel.

And that is all for now. Will say though, that - - - We can NOT start, in the book of Revelation, and or look at the book of Revelation without considering other books of the Bible. We must re-think, as I have indicate, the foundation stones laid down by others who have looked for the Messiah. Garbage in - Garbage out applies. One can NOT set up a template, that forces us into decisions that - - can not, and will not work.

Will now get started.

When looking at Revelation - - a puzzle that one must face, is this. Does the 4th Beast truly rule the entire world, or - - - - is/are the Governments that rule the world in 4 pieces?
We have for input - - several different things. For instance, It appears, that an Army marches from the Far East, to Armegeddon. Is this a rebellion in the ONE Government, (is this a civil war?) or is there actually a seperate Government/Governments around?

Another input data would be - - - the beast of Revelation 13:2. This beast, looks like a composit of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. It could be said that the 4 beasts of Daniel 7, appear to have gotten together, and and have made some political moves. Yes, one seems to act supreme, but - - does that means they are joined totally - - or are they considered to be different lands, and different beasts/governments?


If you will,

Bert











A GOD might warn the

The question about the goverments is a very good one. But as I am on the historic post trib Ferris wheel I would probably answer different then others.

I believe the point about the different framerwork for the views is a good anology. But the early church developed theirs on the writings of Augustine also by thowing out much of the Jewish basis.

To thow out the Jewish basis in my viewpoint is to make a fundamental modern error. Chistianity is a Jewish relgion. The apostles used the Tanak Jewish bible to show what they believed and used it as the final authority in all matters. Yes they spoke with the authority but they appealed to the Bible on why what they taught should be followed. Some scholars place up to three fourths of the New Testament as quotes or paraphases of Old Testament passages. So any framework that does not take into account Daniel and the other prophets is incorrect.

_________________
The LORD He is GOD. JESUS CHRIST is coming again.

Hello Sameulbb7,

Ahh,. But you see what I mean. Ha. It gets quite - - amusing in a sense. We must cry, I think and then heal enough so that we can LAUGH at our selves, before - - healing can take place, I think.

It truly IS a good question. Is Revelation written, for 1 world wide government, or for 4 world class sized governments?

Here is how it breaks down, in short... From a Post Trib viewpoint. (which is mine, by the way)

At the moment, the world is rather American Centric... The WORLD pays attention to Hillary... or is it McCain, or possibly Obama. They are interested. It is in THEIR papers.
So you can see - - that the world, if America for instance went broke - - could, possibly, became China centric - - or EURO or Russian or Arabic centric. - - - yet - - it could possibly still have different full blown countries. Even LARGE countries.
So here is the kicker. If you look at the book of Revelation - - you notice that the curses - - mostly fall on the land of the Anti-Christ. So - - is that the WHOLE world, or just a part of it? In other words, is it absolutely NECESSARY for there to be a Rapture, so that the Christians are protected from God's wrath?

The Anti-Christ kingdom, could - - be getting nailed, in order so that his head is kept down?

The next question would be, is it a legit way to read the book of Revelation? Ha. In my opinion, it is. It is MY Bible also!!!! Ha. But if you look at my profile - - I am NOT listed as a Christian. Ha. I AM one though - - but - - I have been trashed by so many Preachers, over the past 10 years now - - that I am not certain, that I wish to identify all that closely as being related in any sense, to one of them! Ha.

So anyway, I caution you. The Churches tend to dislike - - the above framework.

What it means, is - -
there is no need, for a Pre-Trib Rapture.
the Church, will truly never rule the world, and Revelation is quite LITERAL, so - - mythological interpretations are dead WRONG.

Hence, with one little thought - - - the world turns over. And I have not found ONE Church, that is comfortable about this idea. Not ONE!

Ha.

So I have not published, and - - I keep to the farm, mostly.

One other part, to your letter - - was - - any framework must take into account Daniel plus others.

I agree. My framework - - fits. Had to research a few words, and change them, but - - I think I did it well enough, there also.

The words are - - in Daniel 8, I had to change the word GREECE, into Western nation. (found substancial proof, that this was legit) but - - no one likes me doing that.
The other word was - - changed Leopard, in Daniel 7, into Tiger. That one actually took me MUCH longer, but - - is now easy to confirm. Google tiger and Iraq, and or search MNR or Miner, and Tiger. Are lots of clubs/soldier groups over in Iraq, that like to call themselves the Tiger soldiers.. , so it is pretty easy to get confirmation on that one.
Other word, that also needs to be changed, is - - found in Revelation 13, where there is a composit beast made of Bear/leopard and dragon, etc. That Leopard word, also needs to be changed. I have little or no reason, at this time, to substancially change that word - - - but have done so, anyway. That word, I understand, could be taken either way - - as it again means spotted ORstriped coat, but - - have no info on it, and lots of "tradition" against making the change.

Only reason I MAKE the change, largely speaking - - is when you put it all together like this - - then there suddenly is no need, to bend any verses around, to make them make sense - - within the framework.

But it again changes everything... Totally turns eschatology on it's head, so to speak... and traditionalists rather dislike that concept. Ha.... And they especially dislike a FARMER telling them this is how it must be! (I think?)

Ha.

Later,

Bert

I re-read or thought about my post, just above, and thought I should add something.

two things, really.


I believe, that - - although many many churches, or in fact ALL of them may have a bad eschalogical framework - - never-the-less, they are or perhaps I should say - - WERE right.

Let me explain. The Church, I think - - or the Churches are/were - - not telling people what was technically right - - but - - what was right, from the heart. They were telling the little old lady, with the awful hat, that it was beautiful. They were telling the stingy people, who keep their money in their pockets - - what they needed to hear, in order to part with some of that cash, so that the poor might be fed, and the church might send out missionaries.
Point is, MY stuff does not sell well, at this time. Scares the people to pieces.

So - - in truth, although I might be able to say, the Churches were using a stale and old lousy framework, I never-the-less, believe that - - Jesus - - led the Churches.


But I also believe, that - - the Churches might now want to tell the people, to prepare for some more interesting times.... and the Churches also might also want to cut back on their big spending... so that the people might be able to save some from this summer's harvest. And whatever you do - - get RID of those greedy Television PREACHERS!!!

There. Nuff said.

Bert

You know Bert, after reading the past several posts by you. I have to believe it would not be profitable for all to get into any serious dialogue with you. You seem to have one view only and are very dogmatic to others. If we can not allow scripture to interpret scripture, we will come up with all sorts of views.
If done systematically we can come to some general conclusions and that does include using secondary sources outside of scripture to paint a picture. As I said before a many a good men & woman have come before us to pave the way for a bettering understanding of Revelation. My first intent was to expolre these avenues. But I realize it indeed would be a time consuming venture, though not boring at all.
So I guess I will walk on, nothing constructive as of yet, just ideas and no sources to justify the position.

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

hello Kalabok21,
To a certain extent, I agree with you. Regrets I suppose. I never insist. Ha!

In a way, I think this might be wise of you... yet - - on the other hand - - - only the future will tell. Rather sucks, in a way, I suppose. Ha. But then again - - - - .

There are a couple of thoughts, I can send with you....
According to my Ferris Wheel - - the next thing up, is not Christ coming back, but - - war in Iran... Ah, good times. Stock Market up! Great times. Lots of profits, as War is good for the economy?
Then the next thing up, will be - - - - - - a bit of a problem, while the world sort of throws off an American centric view of things.... one might say. Can not say of course, because things are a bit cloudy there, but - - I think that this will probably be about the same time, as the Great Falling away. Tis of course, a bit unfortunate, but - - that seems to be what I get from the Bible - - . So - - no... ... I do not have a very cheerful view of our near future. Ha ha. Not someone you want on your church building fund drive. ha!

Anyway, so you will NOT have to wait, for 1/3 of the stars to go out, before you can confirm or deny this above Ferris wheel - - as I previously indicated. My guess is, it will be mostly confirmed, within the year. . Interesting times, indeed.

Later,


Bert

In my view the beast raising up out of the land is the United States. What we are facing is a takeover by relgious people of the United States in which the seperation of church and state dissove and Relgious leaders here and in Rome move to reestablish rule by the Relgion much as the world was in the middle ages.

There was on world church then but that did not prevent wars.

_________________
The LORD He is GOD. JESUS CHRIST is coming again.

Hello Samuel,

I think - - or assume, that you are talking about the beast, that rises from the SEA, in Rev 13 with the Bear feet, etc?

The unfortunate thing, about my Ferris Wheel setup, is - - I think that almost everyone else is at least 90 percent right, in one way or another. Yes, I agree, that there will be a woman, who rides the 4th or Dragon beast. And yes, I agree that this woman will be a sort of state type religion.... So I agree in part at least with you, but I come to this conclusion from a slightly different direction.
I first, identify the 4th beast - - as a beast, that is sitting on Proven and plumbed Oil fields.
Then I look at the woman, and religions, and I find that - - there is ONE huge religion, that has been making a lot of GREEN sounds. Wishes that we taxed all - - forms, of CO2 productions and uses. And take care of the world. I then notice that the Eastern part of this religion, is joining back up with the Western part of this religion, and that both sides of it sit in a city that is known for existing in ancient times on a 7 hill foundation. Namely Constantine, and Rome. Both, are cities that sit on 7 hills. So - - I agree with you... but - - I do not get this from this particular jointly formed beast. Most of the details about the woman of course, are found in Rev 17-18.

But will shut up. Perhaps I am just guessing, about what you are chatting about.

Bert

Howdy Bert

The Beast I am referring to is this one.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

I believe this beast is referring to the United States. We started out as a lamb but end up in the still yet future working for the best.

The Scarlet women refers to the apostate church.

_________________
The LORD He is GOD. JESUS CHRIST is coming again.

Hello Samuel.

OOoo eeee. Ahem. ,

These little beasties - - really move around.

"SLAP" There. Got one. Am going to have to go get my glasses, and see what we caught!

Will be back in a little bit. Can not examine it close enough, while working.

Bert

Hello Samuel.

Will give you what kicks out, or fits, relative to my ferris wheel framework.

First, the framework, in brief.
4 end time beasts, being lionman/bear/tiger/dragon.

Then - - these are created, and - - they exist for a while. Indefinate, as to how long, but long enough so that the Woman (religion) which rides the dragon, can garner quite a few toys and buildings and gold. Rev 16-17 indicates that she rides 6 consecutive rulers, before she herself is wiped out - - and then - - comes the Anti-Christ. My guess, is somewhere around 2025 AD - with the end being around 2029.

So somewhere in there- - we have this other gal of sorts. The game is to put the pegs, in the right holes.... or time periods.

In chap 13, which should be attempted to be taken in total. Let us first look at 12, to see if there is pattern we can follow, to try to unwrap 13.
We have in 12, the opening of the End times in 12-1-2. Then, without much of a break at all, we are suddenly looking at the beginning of the last 3.5 years, where Satan is cast down... and the woman fled (6).. and what I take as America (great eagle) flying the woman to freedom across a great gulf.)

Back in 13 - - we have a composite beast rising up. (that would be an association of 4 end time countries/Free trade Groupings - - getting together. - - and the Dragon heals the wounded head (I would take that as recognizing and healing the dollar, perhaps.)


Then - - we hop, to me - - WAY forward in time, just like Chapter 12 did, in verse 4. The Dragon here, is in charge of the 4 head association, you might say. Also - - this Dragon might have just done something Terrible, or HUGE, like wiping out someone (can we think that the Dragon just wiped out the Woman that had ridden him?) (I do.)
Now we have the mention of the 42 months, which would be the last 3.5 years. in verse 5.

And now, it appears, in verse 11 - - we have a replacement for the Woman that rode the beast, who was just killed. Some worshipful someone, with 2 horns like a lamb, etc, doing miracles.


So in MY framework, this beast with the 2 horns, comes during the last 3.5 years, which - - one would see, just after 1/3 of the stars went out, and about the same time that the woman, who rides the 4 beast - - gets killed.

In effect, Chapter 12 is overlapped by Chapter 13. Same approx time period, but with the author looking at different things that are going on, during the same time period.

OK?

To me, during this time period - - while the woman is riding the 4th beast - - everything is sort of half way normal, with the exception that the Woman hates Protestants/Christians. But she gets too mad at them, and kills to many of them, and - - eventually the Beast wipes her out - - but - - by then - - we are actually quite seperate. And actually, we become, over here, more and more protestant, you might say, and God blesses us, because we finally get our act together, and become the Philidelphia Church - - which - - is the only Church, that actually can be heard by the Jewish people. So we go get them, at the beginning of the Trib - - and then the Trib mostly happens - - over there - - - while we are protected here, by a great gulf.

Bert