The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

Howdy again Samuel,

I re-read my answer to you, and decided - - I did not really fully answer it, so thought I might expand on it - - as briefly as I can.



Am going to modify my answer slightly. While I answered, I believe correctly - - I did not, I do not think, go far enough, or answer fully enough.
Let me see. My answer said - - that this Beast - - is in the last 3.5 years. That was correct.
I also said that this beast - - is the Prophet, or fellow, or religious entity that REPLACES the Woman who Rides the 4th Beast. In this, I was also correct, I believe. Hence, we do not exactly need to worry about this beast, at the moment, was my conclusion.

YET, as I read, and re-read and re-read this section, I think that possibly I am seeing what you might be referring to. So a going to go through this chapter, one verse at a time - - so that I can try to keep these beasties straight.
1. Sand of the sea - - beast rise out of the sea (gentiles) Looking at 4th Beast.
2. Looking at the 4 part combined beast union.
3. Looking at the wounded beast, that is healed. All world wondering about it.
4. Looking at the 4th beast and wondering at it's great advantages/strength.
5. Now - - mention of the 42 months, so obviously we are in the last 3.5 years - - and this great mouth which was given to the 4th beast.
6. And this mouth cursed God, and his tabernacle.
7. And he could make WAR with saints, and win.
8. All who are not Jesus believers will worship the MOUTH?
9. Warning to listen now.
10. Do not Fight with sword. Saint weapon is patience now.
11. Now another BEAST comes up out of earth (Israel?) , 2 horns like a lamb - - speaking like a dragon.
12. The LAMB had the power that the First beast had, and causeth the earth to worship the FIRST beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Which would be NAFTA, in my windmill setup).
13. And he, the Lamb w/2 horns did miracles, that they should make an image to the beast (NAFTA MAN)
14. And he causeth all, to receive the mark.
15. No man might buy or sell, unless he has the mark.
16. The mark is the number of Man. 666


Hello Samuel,
Above, is my first go through. Will need to check some things out.
A. Am not positive I correctly followed through, and matched up all - - the pronouns correctly.
B. There are other - - sections that must be brought to bare... such as the 2 witnesses, and or etc. In other words, this section is talking about the last 3.5 years, and there is lots of activity given in the Bible, that relates to what is going on here, and who wins, and who does not.

But was a good question. Took me a few days, perhaps to figure out what you were asking. What you were saying, perhaps, was - - America may NOT be quite the best place to live, in the end times. Will be trouble here also... and the new NAFTA is going to be quite corrupt - - - - taking us and turning us into something that will be worshiped?

Bert

Hello Samuel,

As soon as I posted that, I noticed that there definately WERE some mistakes in it.
Primarily, we have beasts coming out of the sea, and out of the earth, and then these beasts ruled over, primarily the EARTH - - not the sea.

In searching out that, verse 1 mentions SEA twice. beast coming out of.
Then we have verse 3, all the WORLD wondered.
Verse 6, MOUTH cursing God and his tabernacle, etc. (feels Israel based)
Verse 7. war on saints. Power given over ALL kindreds, etc...
All those that dwell on EARTH will worhip him.
Verse 11. Another beast out of EARTH.
Was primary ruler world as he had power EQUAL to what the First Beast had.
He deceived those on the EARTH.

Point am making here, is - - - - while the First Beast is mentioned here - - - - it never-the-less, is not OBVIOUSLY taking a huge role in things. Is mentioned, but - - - - the LAMB with 2 horns, and the Great Mouth are talking about it - - - and are praising it, and the 4th beast's mouth is telling people to copy us. Possibly our contries work ethics, so to speak. Do not see him worshiping the Philidelphia Church, but giving credit to MAN... Might say that they are trying to practice the WORKS that a Christian Naion can produce, but by talking about our WORKS, but I doubt he is talking about where our FAITH comes from - - not our faith to keep going.

But to me, this becomes quite subjective, and can not at this time be totally tied down beyond doubt. My guess, is it will become a bit clearer, in perhaps another 10 years.

But what strikes me about chapter 13, is the counter anwers we have in chapter 14/15.
Point is, this is all quite time sensitive. The last 3.5 years START. So we have seen what Programmes the enemy is getting started, but - - - that does mean they are successful. We have chapter 14, and 15, and 16 speaking to this also.

Be of good heart. Even if the Programmes are started, and some of them do reach over here, - - it will not matter, because the Programmes in Chapter 14-15-16 are also starting.



Bert

HOwdy Bert

While interesting I am running out of time. So I will probably not come back to this topic.

Point Sea stands for many people Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So Dry Land or the opposite would stand for not as inhabited. The United States came up in a land less inhabited then Europe. NAFT has nothing to do with my understanding. GOD be with you.

_________________
The LORD He is GOD. JESUS CHRIST is coming again.

Hello Samuel,

Guess I just do not know your understanding.. Rev 17 of course is about the Whore. I would count her as different than Rev 14 beast.

But Later eh?

Bert

Read verse 5... the child was to rule all nations... caught up unto God and to his throne. Who else could it be?

looks like an old thread that was recently revived. while i didn't read all four pages of posts here, i did read the first page. To answer the subject heading, i think it is pretty clear who the baby is: Jesus, though there could obviously be some other parallels, but from a simple reading of the text it would seem that we are reading about Jesus. The pregnant queen of heaven (who also seems to be the ark of the covenant, if you go back just a verse before this chapter begins) gives birth to a son (the king), whom the dragon hopes to devour. John tells us that the dragon is the ancient serpent, the devil, satan. "The woman" (which harkens back to Eve, "the woman" and the prophecy given about her in Genesis) is also said to be the mother of all those "who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." It doesn't take a brain surgeon to speculate that this woman is Mary, and her Son is Jesus. This is also how the early church saw this passage, so i think we are in good company with such an interpretation. Of course, "the woman" could also be seen as Israel, or the Church, but seeing her as the queen of heaven (as John describes her) fits in perfectly with the Kingdom of Israel, and thus the Kingdom of God. In Israel, it was always the mother of the king who was the queen, so it is not a major leap at all if we know that Jesus is the rightful king, priest, prophet, as well as sacrificial Lamb of God, that His mother Mary (who is seen in heaven wearing a crown and giving birth to the King) is the queen.

_________________
in Christ,

bp

At first glance it looks like the man-child is Christ...but who is the woman then? Israel?...Mary?....the Church?? If this is future prophecy yet to be fulfilled, then, as I see it, the Woman here in Rev 12, is the Church. The Man-Child may be a part (first-fruits) of the church. The iron rod may be the key. As far as I know only the Church and Christ use this rod - see Rev 2:18-29 esp. verse 27 concerning the church in Thyatira. I see this as being the "overcoming" part of the Church. By the way...I am a post-trib. pre-mill. believer. The woman is the then present part of the church which goes through the great tribulation (3 1/2 years).

peace

Rev 12:11
1 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV

Dinosaur -- if you believe the child was/is Jesus then who gave birth to the Lord? -- clearly the Church is not in the mix as it came after the Birth -- so we have Mary or Israel as reasonable possibilities -- the 1st 5 verses are an overview of Israel's history -- looking @ v1 we have a big clue that this is Israel -- if we examine the history from the Garden onward we see that Satan has tried to thwart the Plans of God so it's crystal clear to me the woman can only be Israel

child: Jesus
woman: Israel
dragon: Barney?! (or maybe Satan)

btw -- am pre-mil so there'll be no great trib for you or i tho we will still have to put up with Obama

The reason I think that the Man-child is not Jesus is that to me these propecies are "future" and have yet to be fulfilled....Christ's birth is historic not a future event. Thus the woman is NOT Mary, and NOT natural national Israel. While I don't subscribe completly to the so called "replacment theory" (the church IS Israel idea) I do think that we are spiritual Israel- some promises are for the natural nation of Israel and some are for the Church- spiritual Israel. Also if the woman is Israel or Mary and not the church there are some strange events that don't fit historically. So that is why I see the man-child as a possible "first-fruits" of the church of the end days. I believe the church will go through the tribulation just as the ark went through the flood and the nation of Israel endured in Egypt under God's protection during the plagues. Wrath is for the unbelievers ....tribulation is for the saints....it's promised to us in scripture. john 16:33, 2 timothy 3:11-14, matthew 24:-31 (notice the gathering or rapture of the saints is AFTER the tribulation in verse 20), acts 14:22, romans 5:3-5, romans 8:35-39, 1 thessalonians 3:3-4, 2 thessalonians 1:4-5, revelation 2:8-11, revelation 7:13-17. I think these verse sum it up that tribulation, suffering and persecution are promised to the church...but Christ delivers us "through" it all and we are purified and matured in the process.

peace

Dinosaur -- some quick comments/Qs to keep the ball rolling

what do you mean by "these prophecies"? -- Rev 12?

i do not either -- the 2 are mutually exclusive imo -- i also see 3 classifications of believers: OT saints, Church, tribulation saints

i believe Enoch represents the Church & the Noah 8 represent Israel -- Israel in Egypt is Israel -- i see Israel going thru the great trib -- it's also known as the time of Jacob's trouble -- it is never called the time of the Church's trouble...

i don't buy this -- the saints are Promised "tribulation" but not the "great trib" of Matt. 24 -- there's a HUGE difference between the 2 -- those martyred for Christ clearly suffered tribulation yet they did not go thru the "great trib" -- so Passages like John 16:33, 2 Tim. 3:11-14, Acts 14:22, etc that you listed fit my distinction better than yours imo

Matt. 24:31 deserves more time than i have so will address that in another post -- am @ lunch & it's about over

btw -- eschatology is ancillary doctrine so we're each allowed to be wrong...

The Man child is JESUS. But yes that does lead to a problem of is the women Israel or the church. But it is only a problem for dispensationalists. Since many premillinealist consider the church to be Israel. So to us there is no complete seperation. Gentiles are joined to Israel and become Abrahams' children by the New Birth in faith.

_________________
The LORD He is GOD. JESUS CHRIST is coming again.