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Hello AntiPater,

You posted - - - a rather interesting series of verses in you rebuttal. Let me get them, so we can perhaps better examine what they say.

Antipater says:


Above, is what you said.
Below, is what the verses actually SAY. I underline, what appears to be in direct opposition to what you say.



So what I see this series of verses that you selected saying, is this.

2 Groups.
A. One group signed up with the Anti-Christ.
........... in order to NOT be a member of the Anti-Christ group - - apparently requires a
B. steadfast endurance that only the saints might have.

At least, this is how it seems to read to me.



So while it may seem illogical to you - - - there is NO 3rd Group listed. In fact, these verses appear to speak against there even being the possibility of a 3rd group. So - - - - these verses do not appear to support your position.


One other point. You said, about my beliefs.....



I would say back to you, that - - this thought you seem to have, that there is a 3rd group, that appears to not be mentioned in the Bible, would appear to set you somewhat outside orthodox thought, does it not?
It might be interesting to listen to a sermon based upon what you seem to be saying here.... Repent, and turn away from following the evil one - - or at least continue straddling the fence! ha. But perhaps I misunderstand.

Bert

Themelios,
Certainly all will eventually be judged, but that does not speak to the individuals during the Tribulation period nor to those prior to the final judgment. The text seems to only suggest that the armies which have gathered will be destroyed though it may be possible to propose some sense of destruction of their support system back to where they came as well based off of this notion of destroying those who were gathered against the Lord.

Bert,
The "third group" is implicit throughout the Revelation as watching the destruction of the "Mystery Babylon" for instance. Or of not being numbered among those who gather in that final battle, or not among those final kings and kingdoms united together with or into that beast who defies God and demands worship. There is no message here for "sitting on the fence" but for patient endurance, for faithfulness, for returning to the first love, for repentance, for overcoming. All those who do not submit outwardly to that beast and that dragon have still to face their Lord and either have confessed faith in him or denied him. There is ultimately no fence-sitting, but that does not mean that everyone either is in with the beast or in with Christ...many will simply be in for themselves...which is against Christ as well. So ultimately there is always two camps, but outwardly there may be many (as I believe the text even of the Revelation seems to indicate...albeit less directly).

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Hello Antipater,

I hear what you say - - - i.e. there are 3 camps...
1. Beast and his followers,
2. Christ/Christians/Jewish folks assembly
3. fence sitters/non-committed.

I just have NO idea, where (in the Bible) one could come up with this concept.

As pointed out - Rev 14:9-12, agrees with 2 camps idea - - so - -
Is there some, perhaps, extra-biblical source you are using?
Perhaps a Prophet? Or a Gut feeling? Supernatural guidance?

Thanks,
Bert

Well unless one posits that the final judgment happens immediately at the second coming then there is a third group who are not truly "fence sitters", but who give the appearance of not siding openly one way or the other. Your accusations about where I have come up with this were answered in my last post. That you choose to use mockery is something quite silly. I don't believe you seem to actually understand what I have said since I have tried to make it clear that they are outwardly not with that beast or with Christ, but ultimately there is always only two groups.

The passage you refer to is speaking specifically about two groups...it does not deny that there are others...it only speaks of one and to another and not in the universal terms you are supposing it does.

In fact, while you would make it two monolithic camps (as it were) there are divergent groups within the "camps" so to speak. Note that the "whore" is one part of that wicked camp...and the kings are different ones as well. Also, there are kings and armies from the "east" that come to make war that seem to be perhaps in another relation. In other words...this "camp" is even made up of other camps....some of which desire (while others mourn - Rev. 18:15) the destruction of one another (Rev. 17:16).

Further, in your system how do you come to Gog and Magog in Rev. 20? In mine it is done through the progeny of those who have survived those days of Tribulation, did not take the beast's mark and yet did not confess Christ. They will be those whom Christ will place under the authority of his saints once he has given authority to them to be judges and rulers for the thousand year reign on the earth prior to that final battle and the final judgment. (Now I know that some eschatological systems do not fit this, but this is how I read the text).

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Hmm, this is interesting. Douglas Moo, a well-known NT scholar, argues this way about how unglorified people will enter and exist in the Millennial Kingdom.

Hello Antipater,

Is strange, how I can post, or you can post - - and we see different things.

Let me get the section in question again. OK?




To me, the above section is dividing the people into two camps.

First, yes. I agree. Verse 9 says "ANYONE". I colored it blue.
Yet - - verse 12 appears to have an impact upon this "Anyone". In effect, it is saying, unless I misunderstand it - - that those who do NOT worship the beast - - can only resist through steadfast endurance, and who obey God's commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus. (I colored that Green).

Therefore, while verse 9 gives a qualification - - verse 12 clarifies this qualification.

?2 camps, it appears.?

Yes, I read several commentaries, but - - - from what I can see - - most of the commentators seemed to sort of skip over verse 12, even though it appears to be connected to the previous verses because they ALL are a part of the third angels testimony.

(PS. I have no particular bias.) I just do find this section interesting - - as it would tend to influence our thoughts on how many groups there might be.

(PSS. As a Post Toastie, in truth, I tend to agree with you, that there could be OTHER groups - - but I had never really thought about it from a scriptural basis previously. However those you have identified this far, I believe are a part of the groups that are on the winning or losing side. Woman = corrupt Tinitarian who loses her light - so the people move to churches with light. 10 Kings = all take number so are a part of the bad group Christ wipes out. (is how I have those divided).


Bert