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"So could you tell me why you used the the Telescopic method for using the the Vials?"

Yes I can bert

Here is how I see Revelation unfolding:

The message to the existing church

The things hereafter [still pending]

The portents of the first 6 seals [all prevalent conditions of the tribulation ....
the spreading of the gospel, intense angelic and human warfare, worldwide economic collapse, massive human death, martyrdom, and human response and behavior]

The sealing of the 144000 mortal Israelites for protection during their mission

The 7th [silence in heaven]

The first 6 trumpet soundings at the beginning of the 70th week setting up the backdrop of the period [stage setting] [destruction of the great city of MBG, the release of satan's angelic agencies upon the earth, the rising of the beast and his 10 kings ]

The 7th trumpet blowing toward the ending of the tribulation [the Lord's turning on the kingdom of satan's beast and followers, the Lord's taking back of the earth to rule it Himself]

I don't believe that there is congruence between the first 6 trumpets and the 7th

The first set at the beginning .... the 7th at the ending

There are two many notible differences .... some similar effects, but but different settings

The first 6 judgment characteristics are dominating, specific, and long running as the tribulation unfolds

The 7th is a wrap up and finishing action at the end of the period

Example:

The destruction of the great city part of MBG just at the beginning of the tribulation

The destruction of the land mass where the great city stood at the end of the tribulation during the battle of Armageddon

There are two visitations described .... one at the beginning ..... and one at the ending .... these beginnings are separated by time lapsing

_________________
Truth Files

Hello TruthFiles,

Thanks for sharing. I will look at your patterns a bit more, but - - - I am afraid that I will end up disagreeing, for a number of reasons.

A. Your use of Sir Robert Anderson - - - for your dating system. (previously discussed somewhat)
B. Your selection of the Modified Telescopic method for understanding the Seals Trumps and Vials. I believe that John's first Vision - - - was complete - and nothing more needed to be added. The Second vision, then mostly fills in details that were left out of the First vision - - giving us a blessed second view at things that happen.
C. the use of the Use of the Modified Telescopic Vision - - multiplied sorrows and deaths, perhaps making the invention of a Rapture necessary - - whereby no Rapture exists by itself, in the scripture. In a sense, it is FITTED in - - to explain how Christians might escape the Wrath of God.
D. I believe that the promotion of these concepts above, somewhat cheapens the true Gospel - - - and will lead to the Members of the Churches being Surprised, when the Son of Perdition actually DOES stand up. - - This will lead directly to the prophesied "Great Falling Away", when it is apparent that the "Easy Escape of the Rapture", did not materialize. (See 2 Thes 2:3, where the Great Falling away is mentioned in conjunction with the standing up of the Son of Perdition.


In a sense - - to me, what you show - - - is quite standard, with only a few minor changes, such as - - you do stress the Middle East as a Target zone, a bit more than standard.

I might glance at your charts again, to see if there is more there, that I missed, when I have time.

But thanks for dropping through and for sharing.

Bert

Thank you Bert for sharing

I am familiar with your view

I have found that it takes years of study in order to arrive at an accurate rendering of Revelation .... and the key is underatanding the unique structure of prophetic presentation given by Revelation along with related visions from the other O.T. prophets

I think the Lord has given us a challenge

His Revelation is magnificant [Revelation 1:1-3]

_________________
Truth Files

personally, I hold a post tribulation view because it makes more sense. I keep re-reading passages like the Olivet Discourse, 1 Thessalonians 4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation- and the post trib view makes more sense.
First of all, I don't know how you can read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and conclude a pretrib rapture. It clearly says- Let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.....For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed- the one who brings destruction. (NLT)
No where in that chapter does it say that the Church will be raptured before the Antichrist comes into power. No where does it say that the Church will not go through the tribulation at the hands of the Antichrist. I believe that the Tribulation is a time of testing for the entire world including believers. Those who are of the world will be deceived by the Antichrist to worship him, however those who are genuine believers will not be deceived by him and will stand firm in their faith even to the point of persecution- Revelation 13:7-10.

Secondly, I've heard some people explain the pretribulation rapture view stating that all believers who have died and those who are alive when Christ comes will be raptured and that this is considered the first resurrection. So how do they explain Revelation 20:4-5?-
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years. (NLT)

well, if you did you might see the logic in it, right?

are you so sure?

v1 -- Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

now what do you suppose the part highlighted in blue means?

v2 -- not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.

orange: a forged letter was making the rounds
green: this is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel -- it's also called the "time of the Church's trouble" -- oops! -- i mean, the "time of Jacob's trouble" -- now what was Jacob's other name? -- hold on...it'll come to me!...ISRAEL -- so could it be the focus of this future period is not the Church but Israel? -- seems to me it will be

v3 -- Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

so we have the coming world leader's revealed identity as a sign that this period has begun -- Matt. 24:15 also speaks of this

v7b - 8a -- However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed

many suspect this Restraining Force to be the Holy Spirit which Leaves when the Church is raptured

1 argument that is rarely made is found in Matt. 16:18 -- Catholics & protestants focus so much on the beginning they miss the ending..."the gates of Hades will not overpower it", speaking of the Church -- so i find it hard to believe the Church will go thru the 70th week of Daniel, let alone the last half

there are many reasons the post-trib is jacked up -- a simple web search will reveal them -- but it's ancillary so we are free to choose any rapture model (or none)

this is an interesting Passage but i've only heard a few people make note of a distinction between the Matt/Mark versions & Luke's -- i've mentioned it a few times in here but no 1 took me up on it -- it's ancillary so hey

no time for more

Zzzz

One point that some commentators make is that the gates of a city are not a weapon of offense, but a weapon of defense. Therefore, in the simplest interpretation of the metaphor it's saying not that non Christian offense will not prevail against Christian defense but that non Christian defense will not prevail against Christian offense. Now how do Christians wage offensive war in a non Christian world? I submit it is by spreading the word of god.

I agree that it is ancillary. But to what extent are Christians living as though prepared for rapture but unprepared to live through tribulation, or vice versa? In short, even ancillary tenets do influence the way we live, in the here and now.

_________________
Not all those who wander are lost.

@ Paco-



that made no sense. are you implying that I didn't read and interpret the passage correctly?




you highlighted verse 1 (for what I reason I don't know). I didn't say the rapture wouldn't happen, I'm saying this passage doesn't show anything pointing towards a pretrib rapture.
You should probably highlight verse 3 instead where it says- For the day will not arrive until......

So its clear the Church and the entire world will see the Antichrist revealed.

You said "many suspect" for the Holy Spirit to be take from earth. In my opinion, such an interpretation of vs 7-8 is jumping to conclusions.
it doesn't say the Holy Spirit will be taken from the earth. It just says it will step out of the way (how NLT phrases it). What that means to me- God would not restrain Satan any longer- and Satan would come to earth to establish himself. It doesn't tell me that the the Church will be raptured and the Holy Spirit will be taken from the earth as a result.

read 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8- it says when Jesus does appear from heaven- He will give believers rest from being persecuted and at the same time would bring judgement to unbelievers.
Again there's nothing to indicate a pretrib rapture and then a separate second coming of Christ. It's one thing- the Second coming of Christ. this entire passage is talking about the 2nd Coming of Christ and absolutely nothing about a "pretrib rapture". A rapture will be there (according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), but it will occur at the time of the Second Coming. You would be able to make logical sense of that if you were to correctly interpret what you learn from 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians together.

Also, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Revelation 20:4-6 (which I mentioned in my above posting) and how you explain that with a pretrib view. if a pretrib rapture occurred and the resurrection of the dead in Christ took place, what resurrection are they part of? Revelation only only talks about 2 resurrections. The first one is for saints at the Second Coming of Christ (which is the blessed one) and the second one is for
unbelievers to undergo the white throne judgement but would lead to their second death. if a pretrib rapture resurrection took place- there would be 2 different resurrections for saints- which the Scriptures don't support. That would be a total of 3 resurrections for the dead and that would make no sense (at least from my reading of Revelation 20)

this is obvious to hopefully everyone -- my comment is meant to chill my dogmatic side as i get that way on some issues (e.g., OSAS) -- to remind me & the readers that we must(!) allow opposing viewpts

i do not believe that's what it's saying @ all -- i see it as speaking to the source (aka evil) will not prevail against the Called -- this fact is found in many other places in the Word

indirectly yes -- Eph. 6:11-18 describes our current spiritual war -- the only obvious offensive weapon (v17b) is our Bible (& by that i mean ONLY the KJV! jk)

to me, the only view that jives with the Word is the pre-trib scene -- that said, my faith is in Jesus, not some doctrine -- i've been thru some craaazy trials but could i stand up to the tribulation stuff? -- odds are very slim -- heck, i'm concerned about anarchy breaking out in this bastion of order -- 1 Cor. 10:13 is true

so is Rom. 11:25 -- once we depart, Israel is again the focus & that's when things begin to really ramp up -- how long between the rapture & 70th week, we're not Told

1 problem with Christians, esp. in the West, is our ego gets in the way & we fail to see ourselves (aka the Church) as secondary to anyone -- Rom. 11 needs to be taught more -- we're not the be all to end all we sometimes think we are -- hence, we must strive to read the Bible with Israel @ the forefront -- it clears up much confusion

just trying to be cute as some people get all worked up over eschatology

all the free time i had was used in the preceeding post so must get back to my priority -- will have more time after Mon

@ Paco



if the odds are very slim for you to endure the tribulation- my advice is buck up or get ready to fail the biggest test of your life.
The trials that we go through now should be strengthening our faith so that if and when the last and final test comes, we'll be ready. I personally don't look forward to the tribulation, however I've learned from the attitude and advice of Paul and I pray everyday to develop such an attitude in any trial/persecution to come.

Philippians 3:1,10-Whatever happens, my dear brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord. I never get tired of telling you these things, and I do it to safeguard your faith.
I want to know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I want to suffer with him, sharing in his death, so that one way or another I will experience the resurrection from the dead! (NLT)

Philippians 1:21- For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. (NLT)

1 Peter 1:6-7- So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you have to endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. (NLT)

I believe Revelation which was written to the churches also constantly reminds us that we must patiently endure persecution and remain faithful and obedient.
Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12.

waslostnowfound -- am not sure how to take your last post -- am worn out from finishing a project so will need to examine it when more coherent

Hello Waslostnowfound,

The Setup.
You were commenting to Paco... and - - I thought I should enter the conversation.

My bias - is Post Trib, but - - with a somewhat restrained Tribulation. Vials/Trumps appear to be in parallel - (so things will not be as intense as the old Methodist Preachers used to preach.) Not a Cake walk either, but...

Paco's bias at least used to be Pre-Trib.

You commented..


My comment, as a Post Toasty child, would be - - -
I think that the Post Toasties, and the Pre-Tribbers - - and virtually every other Christian Cereal eater should be - - well - we need to live in the NOW. Feed the kids NOW. Celebrate NOW. Prepare NOW. Live our life for the Lord in the here and NOW. The FUTURE is HIS.
Now I see - - a Post Trib, but - - I expect that if trouble comes - - he WILL give me the GRACE to endure. And as he loves his Children - - he WILL give all the Children he loves - - the grace to suffer what they must.
And so - - it will be glorious. So naturally - All praise to his name.

Background.
Last Saturday Sep 8th - I visited my Father - who had just gone into the hospital. The likely diagnosis was - Stage 4 Cancer. This is what the Doctors indicated. Large tumor. Other growths seen.
I prayed about it. What I got was "Praise to God!". "Praise God".
Confusing yes - but - that is then what I tried to do. Sunday - at services - pastor preached "Praise God". Give HIM the future! "Praise God". So - - I sort of started then to get with it a bit, at least.
Today - the biopsies came back. All clear. Doc lined out to remove the NON-Cancerous Growths. No problems predicted.

So what do I say? Pre-Trib? Praise God. Post Toastie? Praise God... and live in the NOW and quit being so afraid, of a Post Trib Rapture. GOD is the author. God will give the Grace needed. He PROMISES!

Bert

agreed -- tomorrow isn't Promised yet few of us consistently act like it's true

agreed -- we're all lost w/o His Strength/Guidance which is the foundation of what i was thinking in an earlier post that WLTF commented on

I've got a question -- what would be the Point of a post-tribulation rapture. Christ is going to be coming in person to this earth - what's left of it after the Great Tribulation and those He's gathered up Out of the mess -- will be coming with Him to reign. WHY would those who Have accepted Him have to endure so much additional tribulaton .

Why should the Church have to endure Any of the Tribulation time -- Now is the 'time of the Gentiles' -- those last 7 years are for the Jews who've Not accepted Him as Messiah, yet.

And there are the 144,000 Jews from all the Tribes of Israel who will be sealed and going through the 7 years to witness to the Jewish population so They can have one more chance to accept Christ as their Messiah.

Sue -- your Qs are some of the reasons i don't see the validity of the post-trib option -- but others do <shrug>