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kola -- a double fulfillment is possible -- let me offer another take to what DB shared -- the goal is not to get into an endless debate about eschatology but to offer another possibility -- perhaps that is still within the framework of this thread?

i've heard it said that those who take the Bible more literally tend to fall into the premillenial camp -- perhaps that is the case

preterism is a popular view (i have no idea when the view began) though i personally had not heard much of it till a few years ago -- possibly the best take on the subject is Chilton's 1987 work, Days of Vengeance

1 thing that always bothered me when conversing with preterists was the fact thay clung to Luke 21 which appeared to describe the events of 70AD in part -- however, Matt 24 & Mark 13 did not in my estimation -- looking @ the Text it appears Luke 21 is a different discussion held in a different location, Matt on the Mount of Olives, Luke in the temple area -- this would also make them @ diff times of the day but hey

Luke 21 & Matt 24 begin similarly but there is a divergence...

Luke 21:10-11 10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and famines and plagues in various places, and there will be terrifying sights and great signs from heaven. Context (NET)

Matt 24:7-8 7 For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these things are the beginning of birth pains. Context (NET)

but look how each author continues:

Matt 24:9 -- Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name.

Luke 21:12 -- But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and governors because of my name.

it's as if Luke goes back in time from the period he & Matthew are talking about to add the bit about Jerusalem getting jacked up (again)

so it would be my contention that Luke describes Jerusalem being sacked in 70AD while Matt/Mark do not


the generation spoken of in Matt 24:34 is the 1 alive @ the time of the fulfillment -- once everything begins, that generation will ride it out..!

the word "soon" in Rev 1:1 could be translated "quickly" -- the NET notes state this


i never understand comments like these because i take the 1000 yrs to be 1000 yrs & not 1939+


on this pt we all agree!

eschatology gets people worked up sometimes but it really should not as it's ancillary -- what's imp is that each of us read the Word & come to our own conclusions -- no matter one's view, reading Rev is a Blessing!

Rev 1:3 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud, and blessed are those who hear and obey the things written in it, because the time is near! Context (NET)

Oh it began just under 2000 years ago...
I have read Chilton's 'Days of Vengeance' and its OK. However I believe Kenneth Gentry's partial Preterism is more consistent with Scripture than Chilton's eventual hyper-Preterism.


I think we've previously discussed at length the Scriptures you and I reference in our previous posts, and I obviously believe that a number of your statements are incorrect... However I am in full agreement with your statement above and I think that is an excellent place to leave things in this thread.

In Christ

I Believe that double fulfillment is possible, But being in the middle of the 1000 years? I could not agree, and here’s why. I look at Rev 20 and I notice that there are those that have not received the mark on their hand or their forehead. I only focus on this point because I cant see in history where this has happened yet. I have heard an opinion that the 1000 years began after the major persecutions in the byzentine era somewhere after 1000 or so AD, but I don’t buy this line of thought. Besides which I think that the Devil is roaming free at the moment.

Revelation 20:1-8 1 Then I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a huge chain. 2 He seized the dragon – the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan – and tied him up for a thousand years. 3 The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. (After these things he must be released for a brief period of time.) 4 Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. 7 Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea. Context (NET)

There are others here as well, and during the 1000 years, Satan will not be able to tempt as he will be bound and tossed into an abyss. Those alive during the 1000 years will live with Christ and be able to learn from him directly, the right way to live, just as His Disciples did. They will also be Shepparded over by Christ. I don’t see how the world could be anywhere other than just prior to this event, meaning years or several years. I suppose the important thing I note here is that Christ is personally, physically present during this time. I could be a little off on the byzentine thing.

Just my thoughts
Grace and Peace
Robert.

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Hello zachorr

You asked - - - what do we think? Ha. The Debate starts.....

but I think - -
A. the Last Generation started - - - 1999.
B. The next thing is - - - - end of the age of the Gentiles, and the forming of the 4 end time Governments, or 4 end time Free Trade Zones.
So hang onto your hat!

ha.

Bert

Theres nothing to hang onto Bert. If we are honest with ourselves, we realize this world offers nothing at all in the of way satisfaction of mens desire to be right with an end time view. There is more to scripture than hovering around in the revelation camp. You have to be a statemans and acknowledge other views exist. In the end Christ will return to take his bride.

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Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Bert,

I wonder; Why 1999?

What are the 4 governments and what supports this finding?

What are the 4 free trade zones?

I know we are in end times, and I am curious to hear your reasoning on this. We are very close to a one world currency. I heard recently on the ACLJ that Obama disclosed financial info to the European Gov't.

Grace and Peace
Robert

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Ha.
Good morning - - or early Saturday afternoon.

Hello guykickinit, and kolabok21.

Guykickinit. You asked, why 1999. Ok. Here is my answer... There are many "Chronologists". Scriptural and otherwise. Sir Robert Anderson - - through almost every Bible studyier back past Abraham, I would expect. The One I like the best, is - - was Eugene Falstich, from Clear Lake Iowa. He has some stuff on the web, and his suviving widow - - sells some of his books/etc.. He studied it, and I met him, and he buried me with facts and figures and - - all sorts of things, and he had the 6000 years running out in 1999. So I figure 1999 is a handy somewhat confirmable date, for one thing. For another thing - - we moved from 1999 into increasing troubles. Y2K rumors started it - - to 9-11 - - to Saddam - - to - - where we are today, where the only true Growth stock appears to be Piracy.

You also ask about the Trade zones. NAFTA, EU, ASEAN + 3, and one that is not yet formed. read about it- - - http://www.biblepath.org/11/Daniel%207.1.htm Written in 99-2001 This would be another confirmation that the end generation started about then.


And - - not to forget kolabok21 You told me that others have opinions. Yes. I agree. And you tell me I must be a statesman? OK. I will consider it.... what does it pay? Remember though - - I already have a day job. Ha. I just crawled out from under a Forklift - - pulling a starter and taking it to the repair man. ha. Perhaps I should look into a better job. One that does not require me to have stout opinions. .. BUT _ - that starter just will not work, unless it is RIGHT! So - - - - - - - - I guess I do carry that sort of thinking into Theology. Am probably too old to change enought to be a true statesman though. Sorry.

Bert

Hi - I'm new to the forum. I have in the past few years also moved into the historical/partial preterist persuasion. I am still wrestling w/ some issues and am open to conversation on this. A really big issue for me is wondering what exactly the role of satan is, from the partial preterist viewpoint. I've read lots of writings on this and just can't seem to get resolve...

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i do not know what that view's take on your Q is -- we see in John 10:10 his role -- my take on his fate would be found in Rev. 20:10 -- this seems clear to me so i'm not sure what the confusion is about

Yes, I understand very well those verses from a dispensational point of view. My understanding is that the historical preterist view states that Revelation is mostly fulfilled through the destruction of Jerusalem, up through Rev. 20:6. This view necessitates that Satan is now "bound", and we do see Jesus indicating that he would go into the strongman's house and bind him (Mt.12:29). He (Satan) is considered "spoiled" (disarmed) in Col.2.15 and was said to be "crushed" (Strong's = "crushed completely, shattered, broken to shivers") beneath the feet of of believers in Romans 16.20. If this is true (and I believe it is) then what role does he really have, if any? And demons? He appears to have no power whatsoever, even to deceive, according to Rev.20.3.

I know that those who don't hold to the preterist view may not be able to answer what I'm asking, because it goes so adversely against their theology. I know, because that was me a few years ago. After 30 years of being immersed in dispensationalism, those views can die hard. Can someone who is better versed in the historical preterist position speak to this?

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Lakehills101,
It sounds as if you already understand pretty well what the historical preterist view of Satan is. What more are you looking for? Or are you wondering why that explanation doesn't seem to jive with what you see present in the world? You have recognized one of the major weaknesses to the preterist position (but at least the preterist view of Satan recognizes him as defeated instead of some other views -- technically their popularized versions -- that treat him almost as on par with God).

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I guess it's something that will continue to take a lot of study and prayer; I haven't arrived at this place overnight! One way or the other, evil still exists, whether propagated by Satan and demons or just insidiously resident within the sin nature and acted out volitionally. I suppose I am still internally debating my position on this particular point. It takes a lot of work to honestly assess right and wrong beliefs long held, and I am trying to be open to areas where I may be wrong, as well as being right (I want to remain teachable as I grow older!). I realize something this important should not be taken dogmatically, but in a heart of humility and openness to the Holy Spirit. It dramatically impacts one's worldview and spiritual life, so I don't want to live in error. Thanks for input!

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this is a prudent thing -- i examined the historist/preterist views back in the day & found them wanting <shrug> so i definitely do not have a suitable answer -- the standard retort to your take on Satan is this (w/ tongue in cheek): if Satan is now bound, his chain is too long

i look @ the world thru spiritual eys & see SIN everywhere -- were i to view it as God Sees it i'd probably be overcome with violent illness coupled with intense remorse -- so much so it'd probably kill me -- sin is RAMPANT

so why is that? -- certainly mankind doesn't need any help as we "invent ways of sinning" (Rom. 1:30) & yet demons are a' foot (imo) along with their leader

i am not dogmatic on eschatology & tweak my quasi-futurist view from time to time but don't see me coming over to your camp & that's ok -- i suppose the focus needs to be on Christ (Heb. 12:2) & altering our mindset (Rom. 12:1-2) -- that's a full plate right there! -- but then, issues Re: Satan etc are insignificant, right?

Hi, I am fairly new to this website as Antipater will attest. I am sure that he knows why I have found my way into this forum. I am also sure that he will welcome the time to discuss some "things". Let me start by saying that I believe that the world will end on Oct 21, 2011. But that the believers will be gone on the first Day of Judgment in what is called the "catching up" or commonly termed the "Rapture" - same thing Greek or otherwise. There is much Biblical information to share and perhaps hopefully learn here. So lakehills said "...this is a prudent thing -- i examined the historist/preterist views back in the day & found them wanting <shrug> so i definitely do not have a suitable answer -- the standard retort to your take on Satan is this (w/ tongue in cheek): if Satan is now bound, his chain is too long". the 1000 years that satan has been bound happened at the Cross ,yes? So, if he was bound at the cross, what was he bound or kept back from? God did not allow satan to enter into His churches and take control. The 1000 years is a total number of more than 1000 years but God did not wish to reveal His plan and timetable til the Great Tribulation period. The only way to know the time of "these things" is to have an accurate Calendar of the world's History. By God's grace we now have one. Timepaths have been charted and examined and re-examined and incredibly we can see God's method of numbers revealing His plan....TBC

no -- i believe this is a future event

what is your basis for this generalization?