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Hello,

When God inspired the OT, why do you think he included large and numerous sections of lists, such as the names of which Cannanite cities were allotted to each tribe of Israel, and the numbers of each Israelite family that returned to Judah from the Babylonian exile?

I'm not casting aspersions on God's wisdom in doing so. I'm just thinking there must be a good reason for it and I would like to know what that is. What do you get out of reading 1 Chronicles chapters 1-9, for example?

Thanks,
Phil

PS. And while on the subject, can anyone comment on the extraordinary coincidence that among the returning exiles from Babylon, there were 2 distinct families of Elam, both of which contained exactly 1,254 men? See Ezra 2:7 and 2:31.

It does seem a remarkable coincidence.

Interestingly, LXX has in v.7 sons of Ailam and in v.31 sons of Elamar. The difference between sons of Elamar and sons of the other Elam in Hebrew is just one letter, so it's possible LXX represents the original reading and MT has the insertion of that one letter to make the other Elam.

Overall, there are some occasional valuable tidbits in the genealogical lists, but, as full units, I have to concede it's hard for me to appreciate their value.

They each serve their own unique function within their respective context. My take (briefly) on the several you've specifically mentioned would be:

On the Canaanite cities that were occupied: They served for Israel who was given this text in the beginning to demarcate territories where which had been "given" to them by the LORD. It would function in part to point to the various Israelite tribal boundaries as well as a sort of displacement memorial for those whom the LORD removed from the land (to speak to Israel concerning this land not being theirs originally).

On the lists of returnees from exile in Babylon: These multiple lists again were particularly important in their original context as they were intended to delineate who belonged to the people of Israel and could prove it through genealogy (or who were still questioned). It would provide an accounting for Persia as well as for the territory of Judah in Trans-Euphrates. This helped to preserve continuity with the community of Israel before the exile as well as establish rights of inheritance.

On 1 Chronicles 1-9: This list preserves a very condensed (in the first portion at least) genealogy that pointed to the election and preservation of God. They even include certain other peoples descendants/kings (not Israel) who were important in the context of Israel's history (particularly as the Chronicler's period was concerned). This list again created a sense of connection for the post-exilic community (since it was likely written about 400-350BC).

On "Elam" with 1254 descendants in Ezra 2:7 and Ezra 2:31: H.G.M. Williamson's commentary on Ezra, Nehemiah (WBC vol. 16, 1985 p.26) gives the following note on this issue:

The various lists are very often not identical (even when they seem like they should be). There are also many discrepancies, omissions, duplicates, typos, etc., in the various lists. Which suggests they were also not necessarily a favorite for the copyists of these texts.

Merven Breneman ("Ezra, Nehemiah; NAC 1993, p. 77) says concerning the lists:

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Phil, I'm glad to meet you. As far as I recall, I haven't interacted with you before.

Possibly one of the reasons God chose to include genealogies stems from the feud that is currently raging now between the Abraham/Isaac line and the Abraham/Ishmael line. In Church one time I asked for us to come up with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel without peeking at the Scriptures. We did that quite quickly. Then I asked us to come up with the 12 tribes of Ishmael's descendants. Not one person in the entire Church could name even ONE of the 12.

Genesis 25:12-15. "This is the account of Abraham’s son Ishmael, 14 whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s servant, bore to Abraham. 25:13 These are the names of Ishmael’s sons, by their names according to their records: 15 Nebaioth (Ishmael’s firstborn), Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 25:14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 25:15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names by their settlements and their camps – twelve princes 16 according to their clans." NET Bible

Understanding that the Bible specifically states that God gave Israel (Abraham/Isaac/Jacob--whose name was changed to Israel) the land, it is important to KNOW to which line of Abraham's sons this land has been given. That is the current struggle in the Middle East today. There is a Scripture in Genesis where God is talking to Abraham, who already has a son, Ishmael. In that conversation Abraham asks God to accept Ishmael. God did not. God's chosen lineage comes from the genealogy of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, not from the line of Abraham/Ishmael/Nebajoth.

To prove that God did not accept Ishmael as the child of promise, Gen. 22:2 says in the NKJV: "Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love and go to the land of Moriah..." God obviously knew that Ishmael was born to Abraham first, BUT God let Abraham know that He considered Isaac to be Abraham's ONLY son.

Another study of the two lines can be done quite quickly. Open up two Strong's and search for Arab* in one and Jew* in the other. Do this again with any other similar terminology--Ishmael vs. Israel, etc. What you find is that there are very few references to the Abraham/Ishmael line, and there are PAGES of references to the Abraham/Isaac line.

God made a way for all of us who were NOT of the bloodline of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob to become part of the chosen. He did not exempt any group from receiving salvation. However, when Ezekiel 48 described the division of the land Israel--Eretz Yisrael--these are the 12 tribes who will be living ON THE LAND:

1. Dan
2. Asher
3. Naphtali
4. Manasseh
5. Ephraim
6. Reuben
7. Judah
8. Benjamin
9. Simeon
10. Issachar
11. Zebulun
12. Gad

Manasseh and Ephraim are Joseph's two sons, so in effect, Joseph (who is not mentioned in the 12) received a double portion. Ezekiel 48 details that the Levites, the Priests (of which the Zadoks are pointed out) will have an area as will Jesus, the King of Israel.

Ezekiel did not apportion a strip of land to Phil or to Pam specifically. Where does that leave us? I believe that leaves us where Christians will live--New Jerusalem.

Your question asked about why all the listings of families. I believe the Word has kept those lists so that we would know to whom the land belongs. Islam argues that the land, which they will NOT call Israel, belongs to those who follow Mohammed. Yet, the word Palestine never appears in the Quran. The word Jerusalem never appears in the Quran. But thank the Lord we ALL have opportunity to be part of the family of God, not through the Islamic belief, but through the Lord Jesus Christ. To me the genealogies are crucial to solving the argument. Does "Palestine" belong to the Palestinians? The Bible answers that question decisively, in my reading of the Word. Israel belongs to the Abraham/Isaac lineage. In these days when the "Road Map" is pushing to divide Israel and Jerusalem it is imperative to understand what God's opinion of doing that is.

I hope I get to talk to you again, Phil.

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We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

Just wanted to add a little something that "came" to me when reading some of these list. The truth that was reinforced to me was a simple one ... God is aware of and takes account of the details of life, names, places, offerings made, deeds done; no matter how trivial and meaningless they may seem to us.

I am sure the deeper reasons offered are very valid.

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Avid Reader

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The main reason for genealogies is to show the line of the Messiah.

In addition, my study Bible lists three things to remember about genealogies:
1. Look back with gratitude - it shows the roots of others and shows God's faithfulness
2. Look around at the connections - for example Ruth, a gentile, is mentioned which gives gentiles connection to the Jewish family
3. Look ahead with faith - a basis for trusting God (from "The Word in Life Study Bible).

Obadiah,
That's an interesting theory about transmissional corruption in the MT involving a single letter. It sounds very plausible to me, especially since if there were two Elam's, the author wouldn't be likely to mention Elam in verse 7 without qualifying which Elam he was referring to, and also to mention 'the other Elam' in verse 31 as though the reader would know which of the two families was the 'other'.
I like your avatar - is (s)he a member of your household?

Antipater,
I see what you're saying and I agree with it. But my curiosity still remains as to why God chose to enshrine those particular lists in his written Word to speak to future generations and exclude the many other lists that were compiled during Israel's history, such as the Book of the Wars of the LORD (Numbers 21:14), the Book of Jashar (Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18), the Book of Solomon's Events (1 Kings 11:41), the Events of Nathan the Prophet, the Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and the Visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29), and the Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel (2 Chronicles 16:11).

Pam,
Greetings!
I admit I'm not able to follow your logic but I'm interested to try to do so. I agree that the bible emphasizes that God's covenant is with Isaac's descendants and not Ishmael's, but I don't see why such long and detailed genealogies comprising many offshoots and cul-de-sacs were necessary to make that point. And I don't see how the question about the identity of the heirs of the covenant necessarily has any bearing on the current political dispute over the physical land.

Avid Reader,
Agreed. I like your point!

GaryM,
Why was it important to show the line of the Messiah? And in that case, why include the genealogies of anyone not in the tribe of Judah?
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I suspect genealogies were much more significant in the ANE culture than in our modern, western culture, though I'm not sure in what way precisely. Is it something to do with people in those days basing their identity more on being part of a specific family, tribe, and nation, which took precedence over their rights and status as individuals, whereas we tend to think of ourselves nowadays very individualistically? But I am still curious why God chose to incorporate so much 'dry history' in his written Word when he wished to communicate his mind to all people in succeeding generations. Paul wrote that all scripture is useful for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, and this must surely apply to the genealogies and census records.

Numbers chapter 7 is extraordinary for its repetitive structure. Using a word processor and copy & paste, you could type out the whole chapter fairly quickly, whereas it would be very irksome to write it all out by hand. If I had been the original author I might have felt tempted to write one list of each lot of offerings and another list of the people making the offerings. But the author chose to write it out longhand, as though he were making video recording of the dedication ceremony in real time.

Hello Phil et al:

Just a quick note to tell you why the need for the extended list, and not just a short list comprised of just Abraham/Isaac/Jacob (Israel). The Arab community wants Eretz Israel--not only want it but say that they are the rightful heirs. We are living in a time when if possible history would be rewritten in that part of the world.

For the last five years there has been a movement to attempt to convince the world that Jews never lived in Israel, especially in Jerusalem. There has been extensive damage done to the understructure of the Temple Mount with truck after truck after truck of dirt and precious artifacts hauled off. Right behind them came Israelis picking through the debris so as not to lose even one shred of their heritage. During the decade I lived on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem I watched as this demolition continued--to the point that at one time there was a breach in the southeastern corner of the main support wall of the Mount.

Having those long genealogies makes it much more difficult for anyone other than the intended recipients to lay claim to what God intended only for the Abraham/Isaac/Jacob and their many descendants.

Wished I had time to write more. I will try to get back and add in a few more details. I've enjoyed reading through everyone's explanations. God usually has numerous reasons for His actions--a matrix of sorts--and I hope those with even more details will share them with us.

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Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

The Messiah was to be of the line of David therefore He would have to be able to prove His lineage. The purpose for showing non-Jewish people in the line of the Messiah, Ruth for example, was to show that the Messiah was for all men.
"Genealogical accuracy, always of interest both to primitive and more highly civilized peoples, was made especially important by the facts that the land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, that the priesthood was exclusively hereditary, that the royal succession of Judah lay in the Davidic house, that the division and occupation of the land was according to tribes, families and fathers' houses; and for the Davididae, at least, that the Messiah was to be of the house of David. The exile and return, which fixed indelibly in the Jewish mind the ideas of monotheism, and of the selection and sacred mission of Israel, also fixed and deepened the genealogical idea, prominently so in the various assignments by families, and in the rejection in various ways of those who could not prove their genealogies...To more conservative scholars who accept the Old Testament at its face value, the genealogies are a rich mine of historical, personal and ethnographic, as well as religious, information,
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

There is an entire book that addresses this question. I found it on bible.org. It seems to me to be the perfect book to answer your genealogies question--and one which I believe we all should own.

http://www.castofcharactersbook.com

Phil, you might want to try the link, look at the sample pages and table of contents, and check out who is endorsing this book. I am not selling a product, don't know this author, so have nothing at all to gain by pointing you that way. I do think you might want to take the time to check it out.

It tackles a tough project in a systematic and extremely useful format for us as individuals and definitely for our Church and ministries libraries--in my opinion.

Love to you all

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Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

Thank you, Gary, for your explanation.

And thank you, Pam, for recommending that book.

Phil