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Good day Brothers -

I'm interested in meeting other Brothers who have been in the military and have seen combat or in action were combat threatened but never came about.

I'm interested in this because I'm not sure where to begin to study how Jesus would view or what his attitude would be are the particular issues surrounding those things that occur in combat. Specifically, events that leave scars such as the mistaken killing of a child, the death of a buddy, emotional issues surrounding combat in general, such as anger, depression, grief, survivors guilt, and any other issue.

Specifically, I read a post on another forum for those specifically with PTSD, an Iraqi veteran who was on a squad of black ops who went out and killed confirmed enemy. He had guilt surrounding the killing he committed by shooting the enemy in the femoral artery so that he would die a relatively slow death while he held the picture of the family the guy had assassinated in from of him, and mocked him.

How would Jesus have handled this? Are there any citations from the Bible that specifically address such issues?

Bless you all Brothers, Doug

BTW, I'm a Nam vet, saw two tours in the Navy off the coast of Nam, home port DaNang, and have 100% disability for PTSD.

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Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. (KJVR)

I did not serve in combat. I joined the Air Force in 1974 as an enlisted man, and I was a newspaper writer and editor in a B-52 bomb wing in Strategic Air Command. After a couple of years, I transferred to the reserve and then was in Army ROTC. I was commissioned in 1978 and was a reserve military intelligence officer. In 1981, I resigned my commission and settled back into fully civilian life.


The scripture that applies to this would be the command of Jesus from Matthew 7:

Soldiers expect to fight and kill or be killed, but I think they would rather be killed quickly and not mocked.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

At first I thought you were talking about the LAPD! It's a terrible, evil sin, but is like any other sin to those who believe in Jesus now. The same rules apply. We are all sinners. Some sins are esp,. bad but none are above Jesus' power to forgive.

There is a lesson here too. I'm not a pacifist. But I don't knock those X-tians who are. Those who live by the sword often die by it........
Just a thought--nothing more.
S

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Sorry for poking my head here in the open Garage, yes I know I'm a girl and should be sitting on my hands but I did have a question...why are you limiting this discussion to the garage, we have at least 1 woman on the board who has serve in the military AND has seen combat (that would be me btw) Just curious...

thanks

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Jennifer Dent
Site Administrator

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Hi Jennifer -

I've been feeling rather poorly for the last few days so I apologize for taking so long to get back to this thread.




Probably 'cause I'm 60 yo, and WW 2, the Korean War and Viet Nam are the wars that are uppermost in my mind, where combat fatigue or PTSD was almost exclusively male.

Other than that poor excuse I have no reason to want to exclude women from discussions of PTSD . . . however, there may be men who are not comfortable talking about their experiences with women joining in or even viewing the discussion. I'm thinking particularly, of shame related to unlawful killings, rape, both male and female, stuff like that.

Speaking for myself, and giving my impression of what other men I know who have PTSD might say, I am more comfortable speaking of the issues I have surrounding my combat with men and especially with men who have seen combat.

If other men who wish to discuss their PTSD or discuss whether they have PTSD who want to have it in the private men portion of the Garage, I suppose we could do that.

Certainly, women in the two gulf wars are routinely exposed to combat and must be coming home with symptoms. If you have PTSD, or know of women on this forum who do, I would be very interested in their experiences and what symptoms they have. I'm particularly interested in whether the symptom profile is different than that of men . . . the psychologist coming out in me I guess.

BTW, some women I know, or have known, I would have no trouble going into combat with . . . 'cause they are some of the meanest kick *** women on the block.

Regards, Doug

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Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. (KJVR)

Hey Serendipity -

Might I inquire if you served in the military, and if so what branch, theater, and when.

One reason I see PTSD as unique is that the righteousness of combat is in question. They do have the just war thing which just went out the window I guess . . . but at least some read the words of Jesus prohibiting any taking of another's life.

Additionally, PTSD, does not go away. If anything it gets worse with time. Its hard wired into the brain.

The only reference I can think of regarding Jesus interacting in a meaningful way was with the centurion who was involved with the justification for including the gentiles as included in the fold.


Regards Doug

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Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. (KJVR)

Would you like me to me this particular thread into the private men's area? I can move it there but once there I can't view it, and then maybe you can also open a thread on PTSD in the Christian Living forum...that way those who may suffer from PTSD or those that help those with PTSD (which may or may not include military service) can participate

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Jennifer Dent
Site Administrator

Forum Code of Conduct
The Bible NETWork Doctrinal Statement
The Net Bible Learning Environment
The Administrators Desk Blog

AS far as *I'm* concerned I did! Branch? Army. Theater? Yes, I was one of the little kids (Percival) in the high school production of Golding's, "The Lord of the Flies." How's that for a military school production? No "Guys and Dolls" there! We had a real pigs head that rotted during rehearsals so that it stank and had real flies on it for the performances. When? 68/69. It was an all boys military school at the height of the Vietnam war. While *I* may have been in the fifth grade, our Seniors were often going to West Point and ended up in that great war!

I loved it. Guns, knives, Army uniforms (I only made corporal) Horseback riding on English saddles with sabres-- it made Boy scouts look like girl scouts! (no offense, Jen). Today, it's a rich preppy coed school with Harvard/Yale as the goal--not Vietnam.

Today, they would call it child abuse. I loved it and we had some great teachers.
I hear you on the PTSD.
S

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Hey, Doug!

I hope my last post answered your question. Never served in the real adult, military but was quite indoctrinated in barracks life and marching. Hitler Youth comes to mind. <g>

Is this an appropriate play for a fifth grader to be in? It followed the book closely-- Read it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Flies

S

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Evidently, I wasn't considered worthy of the "real" war survivors and all have moved to a closed thread. Fine. This is a summary of the final scene in the production I was dragged into in the FIFTH grade (I didn't understand a thing) Sympathy, Ahem...

"Simon, a part of Ralph's tribe, finds the head of the hunters' dead pig on a stick, left as an offering to the beast. Simon then undergoes a peculiar experience, presumably a hallucination, in which he sees the pig head, swarming with scavenging flies, as the "Lord of the Flies," and believes that it is talking to him, identifying itself as the real "Beast," telling him the truth, that they created the beast, and that the real beast was inside him and inside them all. He also finds the dead parachuter which had been mistaken for the beast and is the only one of the group to recognise that it is a cadaver rather than a sleeping monster. Simon eventually arrives at the peak of a tribal ritual at Jack's tribe, pursued by the ravenous flies, and tries to explain the truth about the beast and the dead man on the mountain. However, Jack's tribe, raging with bloodlust from their first kill, attack and murder Simon, believing him to be the beast in the shadows. Ralph, who took part in the murder along with Piggy, though both indirectly, feels intense remorse.

The savages then raid Ralph's camp, attacking the non-hunters in order to steal Piggy's glasses for making a cooking fire. By this time Ralph's tribe consists of just himself, Piggy, and Sam and Eric. They all go to the rock fort of Jack's tribe at Castle Rock to try to get back Piggy's glasses so that he can see. In the ensuing confrontation, the dark boy Roger triggers a rock ambush in which Piggy is struck by a boulder and thrown off the edge of the cliff to his horrific death. Simultaneously, the conch is shattered into millions of pieces. Eric and Sam are captured and tortured by Roger to become part of Jack's tribe. Ralph is forced to flee for his own safety, now completely alone.

The following morning, in the final sequence of the book, Jack and Roger lead their tribe on a manhunt for Ralph, intending to kill him. Ralph has secretly told Sam and Eric (believing them still loyal to him) where he will hide. The twins, however, are forced to betray Ralph's position, though he escapes with his life in many close calls as the savages tear apart the island to find him. Jack, now nearly complete in his demonic role as the ultimate savage, sets the entire island ablaze. Ralph skillfully evades capture on multiple occasions but soon is so stricken by terror and exhaustion from running that he gives up, expecting to be found and killed. However, the fire started by Jack is so large that it has attracted the attention of a nearby warship.

A navy officer lands on the island near where Ralph is lying, and his sudden appearance brings the children's fighting to an abrupt halt. Upon learning of the boys' activities, the officer remarks that he would have expected better from British boys, believing them only to be playing a game, unaware of the two murders that have taken place and the imminent occurrence of a third. In the final scene, although now certain that he will be rescued after all, Ralph cries, in mourning for his friend Piggy, his own loss of innocence, and his newfound awareness of the darkness of human nature...."

This was the high water mark of my childhood.....
S

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

I just met with my youngest daughter's boyfriend last night to look through sample National Guard enlistment papers. He is planning to join the National Guard as a combat engineer.

_________________
Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

Greetings Brothers -

Yo Serendipity . . . just to let you and others know, this thread was transferred out of the Garage to a setting which allowed anyone who has been in the military to contribute to.

Best regards, Doug

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Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. (KJVR)

Hey Doug,
Where have you been hiding? You know my background and wrote me oflist but
if this is an invitation I still don't know:

--where to find it!
-- and wether I have been approved by the moderator.

As you know, I'm not a vet proper and don't want to go anywhere I'm not welcomed by all members.

Merry Christmas
S

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

You opened a can of worms here!

If you wish to talk strictly about PTSD then you should rightfully talk about other mental issues as well. And you do that, I believe that you should limit it to people having combat, or near combat experience. Therefore Jennifer would be invited to make an exception in this case.

We know that PTSD can often take weeks to years to manifest, and we Vietnam vets are the only ones ashamed to wear our uniforms in public, and called "baby killers" by outstanding US citizens who were near to our departure area. That is abuse, in my book.

Medicinenet http://www.medicinenet.com/posttraumati ... rticle.htm says this about it.


I believe that if we fail to at least try to work with other in discussing the issue, we can bear each other's burden, and so fulfill the law of Christ (Galatians 6)

Therefore, lets discuss it, and the quote above may be a starting point.

I served in the Army from 1979 to 1987 I didn't see combat but have been experienced small arms fire serving in Korea.In 1985 while serving in Korea as a Motor Sgt. for a Multipal Launch Rocket battery we went into the DMZ to train and fire the launchers because there were no firing ranges large enough in South Korea.On the evening of our first day I noticed South Korean soldiers stringing commo wire and setting up machine gun post we set up on a small hill and as night fell you could here gun fire in the distance and as i was falling asleep ( I had bedded down on top of a deuce and a half between the bows of the canvas ) i heard something going over my head like a bee flying by i ask my XO Sir do you hear that and he said yes and i asked what is it and he said bullets i didn't stay on top of the truck very long.The North Koreans couldn't see us but knew where we set up and were taking pot shots at us in hopes of hitting some one I was a new Christian at the time and starting thanking God for protecting me. I have served on the East German and czech and North Korean boader and know how blessed we Americans are. Even with my time in service i can not begin to understand the stress and fears these young men and women are going through and the Military is a very hard enviorment for a Christian and soldiers need our prayers even during peace time.