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Marklug and Truminator,

I quoted your statements and stated that they seem a little too arrogant in attitude. That was not meant to be a judgment nor an attack on your personal character. It is merely an observation regarding what you posted.

Marklug,


Now who is judging?

Is this not a discussion forum? Am I to just disregard a post I disagree with and just go on? Were I to take a look at your profile and postings would I find no instances where you disagreed with someone in your posts? If I do, and there are several, what kind of statement would yours above be?



So someone cannot disagree with you and maintain fellowship? You judge wrongly.

Trumanator,


Perhaps this is meant as a kind "christian" reply. I find it is usually meant to be a backhanded retort instead.

My post was direct. If both of you re-read it you should note that there was nothing personal about either of you because I made no such judgments. However, what you wrote and the tenor of the thread was tending toward arrogance and condescention toward the church and young believers or weak believers.

Perhaps I should quote scripture which backs up my point,





And I keep coming back to,
and a good look at 1 Corinthians 13 as a whole but particularly, (All quotes are ESV and underlining is mine)

Again, I have pointed out that it seems to me that both of your attitudes toward others in your churches IMO based upon what you posted is not IAW the Scriptures above.

I conceed that there is a great need for better doctrinal teaching in several places to include the men of the church. But as noted in the Bible you do not feed meat to babies on the bottle and all children need adults to model their lives after. As I pointed out earlier it is in relationships that these men will be challenged to grow. Nothing less.


Blessings,
Randy

Randy,

It was not meant as a back handed comment but merely a statement as to why I did not address your comments line item by line item.

You can choose what ever conclusions you like based on your experience but I assure you I meant no malice. I should have pm'd that verse to those whom I intended it. Call it an error in judgement or simply not fully understsnding the function of a forum or whatever you choose or simply call it a back handed comment.

I will address one thing however. You base your conclusions on your experiences, the scriptures etc. Based on my experience one should be cautious anytime someone, a pastor or teacher in particular implies that wanting to get deeper into scripture or bible study is a bad thing. Whether that it through implying that one has attitude is arrogant, condescending, I'm deeper or I'm better, or whether it simply stating that one should only attend this church or this teacher or these conferences is a really bad thing. Those teachers and pastors in my experience should be avoided and ran away from if you are not really solid in your biblical knowledge. When I told my bible study leader my thoughts he responded with loaning me an excellant commentary written by an author he respects. He also discipled me regarding the need for all of us to study Gods word as deeply as possible. I also shared this with another dear friend and during our conversation it turns out the area of focus in my current study is what he wrote his Masters Thesis on back in the 70's at Dallas and has offered to share it with me. Their approach was to feed me. I like their approach better than yours but that is simply my opinion and mine alone.

While we may be able to agree to disagree and discussions often may find disagreement on the small and still be oppurtunity for discussion. There are times when two points of view are so dramatically different further discussion would serve little or no purpose. Especially in my case as a young inexperienced beleiver vs someone trained but yet so completely different of mindset than the teachers I respect and admire. That being said I believe my coming here was yet another error in my judgement. I have good solid teachers here locally who agree with my thought process on this subject. I should have spoken to them before coming here but I often feel like a burden. Thank you for your time

Truminator,



This is clearly not what I have said nor have I implied it. This is your conclusion or interpretation of what I've written and it is wrong.



Again, You have judged me wrongly. I am glad you have teachers with whom you respect and admire and whom challenge you. Here you illustrate the point I made earlier about relationships.



First, I'm sorry that you came to the conclusion that coming here was a mistake. You have misread and misapplied what I've said and for that I'm sorry.

Second, I doubt anyone in ministry is "burdened" by you or your questions and quest for the deeper things of theology. This is part and parcel of ministry. I'm sure it gladens their heart to see you and answer your questions.




I take you at your word here.

It seems we have placed each other in the same boat. You seemed to imply me to be a "fool" and now, in the first sentance quoted, something I have not said. I seemed to imply you to be arrogant. Both of us are denying such things. I suggest this to be a miscummunication and, at the very least, we should not part ways without being reconciled (Mt. 5:23-24).

The offer is there, do as you wish.

Blessings,
Randy.

Randy,

You wrote:

Did that sound like a judgment? I apologize if it did. I was merely expressing a certain way your comments made me feel. I am sure that friends do disagree, for I have had several myself that I disagree with but still hold fellowship. But its not so much the disagreement I find the problem for me, but its in your writings coming across sharp and snarky. I think the evidence for that being other(s) who took the same offense to it and is contained in this post as well as others. You can disagree without making others feel impuned for their beliefs and feelings on a matter.


and you said:

Indeed, you don't feed meat to babies, but neither should you force feed adults milk. When you have to deal with a christianity purely steeped in tradition and milky theology there is a tendancy for these not to want anything better. They balk at mentoring. They feel that the things that they believe and were taught all their life are gospel truth. They will only go to conferences and to places that feed them more of the same. It is a rare few that accidentally break out of this pattern. You know, I have mentioned people like Chuck Swindoll and John Macarthur and draw blank stares? I have encouraged several to visit this site to get some basic theological teaching and understanding, yet have been turned down. Recently visited a home of a noted member of the church and saw their "library" consisting of great books of theology by Benny HInn and Rod Parsley and Joyce Meyer.

I am involved in my church. I have only been allowed small bits and parts in my church. That is fine with me I will serve however I am called. Whether it is cleaning a bathroom or fixing a railing, I will and have done that. However, I recently volunteered to teach a new s.s. class dealing with systematic theology and the bible. The SS director said: " Well we don't won't to scare people." Rather they let pastors wife started a new class called "Spares and pairs".

But to narrow the scope of my conversation back to the original topic, I don't think it is arrogance to state that you don't feel challenged by the goings on in local church activities and to want something more if that is where you are spiritually. If that means finding your own group of friends, so be it. There is nothing wrong or unscriptural about that. Sometimes people, especially Southern Baptists and particularly Independent Baptist feel that for one to step outside the denomination to find a mentor/disciple relationship or an informal men's group that is a better fit spiritually is somehow wrong and is betraying the "baptists". I find no scriptural evidence to support this. We should seek unity. We should seek accountability. But it is hard to do when believers are so far apart spiritually.

Brothers,

I would like to provide you all with a gentle reminder that sometimes we need to expend a little extra effort in our attempts to communicate clearly. Sometimes the message sent is not the message received merely due to the media in which we are attempting our communication.

My own apologies are due as I did not do as I said I would. I failed to review this thread more closely last night, and as a result this thread has remained locked far longer than I had wanted it to be. Forgive me for that.

I think that the issues which this thread brings up is valid. Some of us have had a more varied walk with Christ than others, which is why the onus is on us to engage in a way which edifying to our brothers, and especially if they are struggling with their own walk as some do from time to time. I myself am not above miscommunicating my thoughts, as is clearly shown elsewhere in these forums.

The issue of ministry to men has been a burden I have had for many years. And my experience with groups, both inside of churches and para-church organizations is as varied as my association with various denominations. But in all cases it has not been universally disappointing. But I have fought the urge to call them worthless, since they have ministered to many, regardless of what I may have thought about there effectiveness. Remember

Prov 10:12 12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers all transgressions. Context (NET)

and

1Pet 4:8 8 Above all keep your love for one another fervent, because love covers a multitude of sins. Context (NET)

for

1 John 4:19-21 19 We love because he loved us first. 20 If anyone says “I love God” and yet hates his fellow Christian, he is a liar, because the one who does not love his fellow Christian whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And the commandment we have from him is this: that the one who loves God should love his fellow Christian too. Context (NET)

.

Too often I have seen the Scripture

Eph 4:15 15 But practicing the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ, who is the head. Context (NET)

used as an excuse for rude and arrogant belittlement of brothers and sisters who are looking for some understanding of their plight. Those of us who struggle with sin, feel our pain, sometime acutely. And all this sort of "suck it up" and "pull yourself together" attitudes we can sometimes receive from more "mature brothers (and sisters)" is greatly disheartening.

There is a great story I heard on West Wing (I know I watch way too much tv) that goes something like this (this is my paraphrase of course):



Sometimes all we are looking for is fellowship and understanding. Sometimes we look for more. What I look for is a group that does what it says. If it's a men's prayer breakfast, there had better be prayer, and there better be breakfast. The same if it calls itself Saturday Morning Men's Fellowship, Men's Bible Study, or whatever. If it does not, I move on, quietly, sometimes offering an explanation sometimes not.

So brothers the point of this post is simple. Let us try to be a bit more patient and loving with one another, making every effort not to jump to conclusions about what another "meant" by what they said. Trying to reread what we have written before we hit that "submit" button, and look at it as if it were directed to ourselves.

Mike

_________________
MikeC1956
Asst Admin

know that your sin will find you out. Numbers 32:23b NET

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fides quarens intellectum, credo ut intelligam
faith seeking knowledge, believe to understand

all quotations are by bible translation indicated.

Thanks Mike for the reminder.

lol

That's why I'm on these forums: I've found that if you really want to dig deep and get multiple interpretations and perspectives and well-thought out ideas, that the Internet is a great place. I like Bible study for catching the gist but every now and then I'll get into a great discussion about complicated and interesting theology.

Experience and prayer are important but so is bible study. Love the Lord with all your heart and all your mind.

Ryan,

Consider this..... (in NIV)


Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

Eph 4:12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

Eph 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Eph 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Notice, the church prepares the people for works of service, refer to galatians 5:6ish, neither circum, nor uncircum matters but faith expressing itself thru love (memory from niv), and from those works of service the Church is built up, til we have UNITY in the Faith, (read john 17 last prayer), AND IN THE KNOWLEDGE....

Do you realize that is a knowledge that comes from experience, not study? From works, not theology? And how mature will this help us???

To become mature/perfect/fulfilled telioos <<?sp. That silly PERFECT word in KJV.

How mature??? Gaining the WHOLE measure, Of the FULLNESS of Christ. Not in partial fullness of christ but fully in Christ... And you won't be infants then you'll be mature...

That is through works not study knowledge.

I'd imply that seeking to gain knowledge can lead folks a false sense of control and security. That until you step out with what you learned and LIVE IT and APPLY IT, that your maturation is grossly hindered. You can read a romance novel and not learn to love. You can read teh Bible and not learn to love. You get out and continually strive to Love your neighbor, and God whll change you so you ARE love. Mat 5:48/ End of Mat 25

I have found that active service along with active study (and by implication wrestling with thorny theological issues) result in growth. One can "receive" all sorts of stuff if one is relying on service only. Many of the cults (no I'm not saying you're teaching cultish anything) use this approach. The Unification Church defines what service is to the newbies in a way that gets them out on street corners selling roses. You've seen the yellow sign with red lettering scrawled on it, yes? But stop and talk to them about Jesus being the way the truth and the life, try to get them to see that the "good" Rev Moon is in it for the control and money, and then come back within say oh...and hour and they'll flee like you were the one "offering them the kool-aid."

A good goal is to balance both. Right Teaching + Active Service = Growth to Maturity. You can have either without the other, but the end result will be a grotesque misshapen faith.

I am especially leery of programs offering "Quick Growth in Grace" as well. I am going to borrow from one of my first pastors who attributed a strong walk as being the result of "deep, daily, serious, fellowship with Jesus Christ", through prayer, study of the word and acts of service. The italicized part was his, the regular typeface my addition.

Eph 2:10 goes with verses 8 and 9 and also with 2 Tim 2:15. Looking up the word study in the Random House Dictionary all the way down the list one can find the following definition: to apply oneself to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or practice. This also calls to mind that there are many forms of learning, and each of us has a way to learn. I learn best (in order) by reading, by example, by experience. I know others who have it explained to them by someone and they are set, and someone else needs to watch someone do something in order to "get it." It is a marvelous plan on the part of our God really, when you stop and think of it. It is one of the reasons why the church is so interdependent one one another as well as being dependent on the Holy Spirit.

_________________
MikeC1956
Asst Admin

know that your sin will find you out. Numbers 32:23b NET

Statement of beliefs
Code of Conduct
The Bible NETwork Blogs
The NeXt Bible Learning Environment
BeneSHOP: Help support Bible.org at no additional cost to you when you shop!

fides quarens intellectum, credo ut intelligam
faith seeking knowledge, believe to understand

all quotations are by bible translation indicated.

If you don't study the Bible, how will you distinguish between "every wind of teaching" and which is true or heresy? By experience? What if your only experience is based off of heresy? Will the Holy Spirit tell you what is heresy? Then why have a Bible at all if the Spirit doesn't talk to us through the Word?

The point is the Christian walk is multi-faceted: bible study, prayer, fellowship, experience.

Not every Christian walks the same path and so they do not have to follow all four of your poles. For me, for example, bible study is low because the Bible is not the full authority for Christians rather it is the inner experience that is the primary pole to follow.

I meet in fellowship, I pray, I experience, it is just the bible study that is not highly done by me; does this mean I'm less of a Christian than you (or other Christians on this forum)?

_________________

poles? interesting term. From whom and from where does this come? I mean from whom did you first hear this, and what was his scriptural basis for making this claim?

You see, I value experience too, but it is kept in check by the scriptures. It is well known, at least in reformed circles, that sola scriptura doesn't mean that the scriptures are the only source of authority, it means that they are the final source of authority. And that without this key "ingredient" the picture of faith can become distorted.

* Scripture - the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments)
* Tradition - the two millennia history of the Christian Church
* Reason - rational thinking and sensible interpretation
* Experience - a Christian's personal and communal journey in Christ

Then how do you know that what you believe is the truth? (Just a question, not a challenge. Nor am I questioning your salvation.) I mean for years I attended a church where the depth of reasoning was as follows, "I know, because I know, because I know..." which I guess for me just isn't quite good enough.

I mean for years, and without knowing what this stuff was called ("The Wesleyan Quadrilateral" sort of has a semi-impressive sound to it, don't you think? ) I reasoned that the teachings which were adopted by the early church, had to be the ones closest to the teaching of Jesus. And so I began to study, not only the scriptures, but the writings of the early church fathers and church history. Then after getting handed by butt to me several times by some godless atheists and profoundly logical cultists, I started studying logic (reason) as well.

Today, I do not see Christianity as something to be engaged in blindly (that is with blind faith), but rather there are extremely excellent reasons for believing what we believe. That the faith can be defending logically, that one can experience to a degree, the presence of God while still here on earth, and that fellowship with Jesus can be maintained via prayer and meditation, and by fellowship with other believers. But if I were to rely primarily on my experience, then there would be disaster in the offing. And that said disaster could me upon me before I was even aware that something was awry.

So again, I ask, how do you know that what you believe is the truth? (again not a challenge, but a question. Nor am I questioning your salvation.)

_________________
MikeC1956
Asst Admin

know that your sin will find you out. Numbers 32:23b NET

Statement of beliefs
Code of Conduct
The Bible NETwork Blogs
The NeXt Bible Learning Environment
BeneSHOP: Help support Bible.org at no additional cost to you when you shop!

fides quarens intellectum, credo ut intelligam
faith seeking knowledge, believe to understand

all quotations are by bible translation indicated.

That's exactly what I was trying to say.