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I don't know maybe it's just me but it seams that there is a "new men's group" around every corner. Most will be based on a book or a video/DVD set or something. Not that these are bad but I guess I'm finding them to be quite shallow with no real substance. I find myself longing for a good in depth bible study. Maybe I'm seeking a commentary in conjunction with the bible but it's focused learning for me. I get frustrated with these mens fellowship programs that jump from book to book and never really go deep into what God had to say.

It seams that lately as soon as I hear "we're starting a new mens group and focusing on mens hearts and God's plan for men" I instantly get turned off. I guess I'm just wondering if the best way to gain an understanding of what God wants, what I need to now etc. Is it just me?

I just finished a topical study on anxiety and I found it to be great. Before that it was the book of Hebrews, before that the book of Acts and now it's a topical study of Proverbs. I guess I'm wondering if I'm an odd duck or if anyone else gets these same frustrations with "mens groups" at church.

No,

You aren't the only one.

The Southern Baptist have a men's organization called "The Brotherhood" which meets usually once a month or so. Mine meets once a month at 7 am on Sunday Morning. One guy said to me rather in a authoratative tone: We didn't see you at the brotherhood meeting this morning, why didn't you come?" I told him " Make it a 9 on Saturday and I'll be there. Mostly all they do at this church is cook breakfast. I haven't seen or heard much at this church that makes a serious impact for the kingdom of God.
They get together and sing/listen to southern gospel music, which I can't stand for very long. It is assumed that all men in the church wish to participate.

I'll participate in something if I feel a real value or need based in something that is soundly grounded in scripture.


There are a lot of churches that do have men's Bible study groups but they are few and far between where I live.

They just had a men's conference and I did not go because I could see it was more of the same. It is great for people who have never heard the things that I have or had any form of spiritual training. In fact 15 men got saved out of around 500. But I would have been holding a place from someone who needed it.

I guess once you have the understanding and training to actually conduct an event like this, they are much less challenging and their purposes are to challenge men stuck in the same old archaic and tired tradition based Christianity which has little value to their current life and circumstances. I am not jaded about them in the sense that I am too good to go to one but rather look for ones that take people further and deeper than they have been before.

I prefer a small group that focuses on scripture study too.

The best way to make that happen is by leading it.

If other people come, that is proof others are interested in the same approach.

_________________
Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

I guess that is sort of the point I was trying to make. Some of these seam more like a pep rally or dessert than they do meat and potatos. I signed up for a conference last Sunday and plan on giving it a go but it seams to be more of the same. It's the men at the cross conference which I really like the speekers in general but it seams that much of what they do at these conferences is more about getting you all pumped up rather rather than giving me the tools I need to prop up my feet of clay so to speek.

Don't get me wrong. I believe these things are good and fellow ship is important, iron sharpens iron etc. but what about really getting into the word. What about really getting into the meat and potatos of the bible. I realize it can be tough to do something like that in a day and a half conference but some of these "fraternity" programs once a week at my local church kind just skim along on the surface as well. Like I said these are good things but I want more. I don't need entertained I need good bible teaching. I guess I'm a more roll your sleeves up and get to the heart of the scriptures rather than get to the heart of man.

I guess I just don't see Paul, Pete or John teaching along side a band or teaching new beleivers a chant. I guess personally I don't have a problem sharing my faith I just have a problem with my lack of knowledge which I'm working on but like most it's a life long process. I need conferences and mens group to help with that. Improving my knowledge and understanding of the scriptures so that I can share more.

I'm with those who suggest you start your own. There are those, I'm sure, that would be willing to join with you in a bible study so ask your pastor if they're willing for you to start one--I'll doubt they'll say no.

_________________

I am opposed to the tenor and the direction of this discussion.

Statements like,
(ALL UNDERLINING MINE FOR EMPHASIS)







all seem a little arrogant in attitude to me.

Perhaps the reason you don't get much from the conference is because you have pre-judged the conference, yourself, and God's purpose for it wrongly. Also, perhaps if you want more you should talk to the leaders in your church and tell them your position. As a pastor, I can't help what I don't know and I certainly cannot read my parishoner's minds! Knowing the need itself is the first step in providing for it rightly.

Lastly, there are some churches out there who have no mens groups meeting at all! Even if the groups you have need depth, shouldn't you praise God that you at least have something to start with?

Perhaps God has put you there to challenge them to go deeper.

Or perhaps he has also put you there to get you back to the basics you've forgotten before he takes you, and them, deeper.

In my experience real depth only happens when real relationships are established firmly. Pulling away from your established mens groups removes you and them from the chance of meaningful relationships which truly challenge all to grow in Christ. To pull away with an "I'm better than this" or "I'm deeper than this" attitude is condescending to those new in their faith and discouraging them, to say the least. I'll bet that they all notice your pulling away and know the attitude as well. We don't really hide as much as we think we do. I wonder if they (perhaps wrongly) assume that you think you're better than them?

Blessings,
Randy

In our church we have a mens' group. We meet sat mornings.

We first spent 6-9 months talking about what we are afraid of.

We spent some time with Control, and how we strive for control.

We learned that our quest for knowledge was a way to hide from God in our control of the information.

We spent a few months on studying film is good for athletes, but you don't learn to bat left handed until you swing the bat a LOT!
This was leading us into putting more into practice in our communities, friends, NEIGHBORS, the love we were studying.

Then we hit relationships, what do you have to do to build a better relationship with a friend, a spouse, etc...

Why don't we do that with God.

Now we are focused on why we can't devote time to HIM daily, but we can to TV etc...

We talk not so much scripture, although it's present in all of our studies. We focus on losing the control that we can sometimes hide behind in a bible study, and letting Him have control.

I don't know if this will give you or anyone any ideas, but we are much more motivated than the folx sitting around and agreeing on the next great study from penguin press or whomever. This is about getting it more in the face. And for us, it's having pretty good impacts so far.

Pray for us if you think about it.

Again, the same thing happens in all church’s I believe, a lack of men’s participation in men’s bible study (that’s what we call it). I do not think it is a recent phenomenon, but perhaps it is when talking to some of the older men at my church. We have about a 300 member church and I can tell you only three men show up on Saturday morning, myself barely under 50 and two others 65 plus. We have attempted a breakfast get together, simply to feel the pulse of what they want to do or (study) and usually maybe a dozen shows up, fellowship, share and pray. The following Saturday we get a few more bodies, but it wanes over the next week or two. I don’t think it’s the teaching methods or study as it is simply just Saturday. You know men value Saturday for all sorts of reasons but it seems Bible study is last on the list and to try during the week night is well less likely, due to the area I live in and everyone commuting to and from work (it is time consuming) and the last thing anybody wants to do is something else. I believe that is why Saturday does not work very well for most (A laundry list). Still Society is a big part of the problem and the way our culture has pushed Christianity to the side so to speak (We try to get it all done on Sunday) has made it more difficult to get men to come. I suggest Prayerful purpose, even if nothing immediately happens, we do and sometimes we get a few here and their for the short term. I suppose it is the way of things to come, meaning that our culture as it is affecting our Christian faith (here in the USA) is greatly reducing it down to one day only. But that is the reason more to show that God is 24/7 as we should be. Another thought, I have had success with a video/teaching program, where you have 30 minutes of movie, 30 minutes of study, and they are biblical/scriptural in that sense. Recently I am doing the Jesus of Nazareth (done back in the 70’s) as a topical study with in depth scripture support and it causes us to search the scriptures to justify the movies interpretation. There are a few others out there, Apostles creed, Paul, the Gospels (individually) and so on.

https://www.visionvideo.com/

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

I think asking people to get up early on Saturday morning will work for some people, but not for many of us.

We all need a day of rest. It used to be a command. I don't have to have all Saturday and Sunday, but after getting up Monday-Friday and heading into work -- I am ready for a Saturday sleep in.

If I were retired and slept in the other days of the week, that would be different.

_________________
Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

AMEN

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Randy,

I apologize I have not communicated my thoughts very well.

As I stated originally I see value in the "fraternity" groups as well as the conferences. I do not see how wanting to go deeper into Gods word makes one arragant or condescending. To be quite honest I was a bit offended. As I read on I realize how you one could come to this conclusion based on a few shards of information.

Maybe God is trying to remind me of where I started out, maybe he is calling me to get deeper into his word? I'm sure he will let me know in his way in his time.

You made several good points all of which I will pray about and meditate on.

Randy,

I guess you always need to have something to oppose,

but you have judged me wrongly.

I mean no by self congradulations by what follows. I am only attempting to give context to my statements.

I have been to many conferences. I have sat at the feet of men like David Jerimiah, Chuck Swindoll, Tony Evans, David Ring, Raleigh Washington,George Verwer, Ravi Zacharius, Warren Wiersbe, Irwin Lutzer, Joe Stowell, Bruce Wilkerson, George Sweeting, Alistair Begg, Jim Cymbala, Larry Crabb, Charles Stanley, EV Hill, Joni Ericson Tada, enjoyed sitting in worship with the Brooklyn tabernacle choir, Michael Card, Steve and Annie Chapman, Steven Curtis Chapman etc. and etc. I could go on but it is not my intent to brag but rather demonstrate the broad scope of what I have experienced. I was blessed to be able to attend conferences where these people challenged and brought to bear the word of God. Not only that, I got to hear these men and women on nearly a daily basis for several years. I have been on mission to the African Bush, working with an Independent Baptist Church in NE Atlanta area. I have worked with several foreign student evangelism conferences. I have managed a farm where I taught daily the principles of the word of God in Spanish to migrant workers who may never have another chance to hear it for sometimes 10-15 hours of day in discourse while they and I worked to speed their laborious day by. I have invited 25 of them at a time to eat at my house for lunch so they would have something to eat, and give them another dose of the gospel. Yet I guess all of that leads me to being arrogant?

I do find it hard to be challenged by the run of the mill conference. My brain stays asleep during these tried and worn out conferences, I fidget. I get distressed by hearing many times poor doctrine being espoused in order to get hearty amens. I have tried going to these local conferences and they have little new to offer that is refreshing and insightful and challenging for me. I have no idea what kind of culture surrounds you and you have no idea of mine, apparently.

I have to battle daily and constantly with the "tradition without meaning" Christianity that surrounds me on a daily basis. My church decided stop singing Happy Birthday and Happy Anniversary to people last week during the worship service and I could tell some people were upset. Can you imagine doing that every Sunday in Morning Worship? We sing two songs and then sit down, but somehow it stretches out to 35 or 40 minutes because the announcements take 20 minutes. But the clerk of the church doesn't want to change the foursided, B and W photocopied, handdrawn image of the church on the front bulletin to allow for announcements to be printed on the back because it is too much trouble.

We had an outreach to the surrounding community, that brought in well over 300 people and had a concert that brought in a group that sang Southern Gospel. Our community is 90 percent black. None of them stayed (the blacks). Only the church memebers(white). Someone said "I was afraid that group was going to be something else than what it was". Many of the deacons are Masons. My wife and I stay there so we can be salt, but honestly there is little else here. Last Sunday, we sang the third worship hymn in a year! Everything else has been old timey gospel.

The conference of last weekend, involved 2 speakers, one influential Southern Baptist and one Influential Methodist. I looked at the agenda and found it to be quite basic. It would have been valuable for someone who has been taught and raised spiritually in the conditions I described, but for me, I need something more and different.

Call that arrogant? I call it priviledged in the humblest sense of the word. The conference was quite full and I wanted there to be enough room for someone else who really did need it.

I would say you have made a great assumption about me and have made a goof to put it politely. I have been called alot of things. I guess arrongant will have to be added to the list.

But you have displayed a pattern to take contention with me, and I can't figure out why, but I have learned that not all Christians reach out the right hand of fellowship as they should. I hold nothing against you but wanted to clear up the matter of my arrogance.

Marklug,

I too wanted desparately to form a polite rebuttle line by line but ended up landing here.

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, 1 lest you yourself also be like him.

Personally I go back to my orignal premise and won't take the time to battle anyone in a war of words over this subject. I still contend that these conferences are all well and good but for me I do truly want to go deeper into Gods word. I believe that most viewing and posting on this board have a greater knowledge of Gods word than I do. If preferring to roll up my sleeves and get into Gods word and learn makes me or you or anyone else arrogant and condescending then by all mean lets ALL get arrogant and condescending.

Mark,

I understand what you are saying. I nearly totally agree.

Would you like them more if they were less concerned about offending people, and more concerned about getting in people's faces with the meat of the matters? If you were challenged and not coaxed? If you were tested and not titilated?

Ok, my jesse jackson thing with same first letter words is over. I haven't the skill.

I think there is WAY too much thinking about scripture and not nearly enough living it. I don't mean living it to be sinless and perfect. I mean living it to be God's Instrument to the people as we are supposed to be.

The early church LIVED the life, they didn't pontificate theology.

I want conferences that challenge us in THAT way.

Tru:
You said:


That's the point exactly! Well said brother.

Xian:

You said:


Quite possibly you are right...but I think the idea is for some kind of male bonding to happen at these conferences. I think that idea has been overplayed into a cartoonish joke. My real bond is with my wife. She is my accountability partner. She holds my feet to the fire and has a way of making me confess my deepest darkest secrets(she knows them all...I think she knows some about me I don't know). Isn't that what God intended? I mean no slight to single men, for I was one until I was 30 and then for another year or two later. But a lot of those men spend too much time bonding and not enough time out there in the world doing God's work where they may coincidentally find their life's mate.

Patterns of male friendship are in the Bible as evidenced with David and Nathan. I have that with several friends that God has brought across my path. Most of the time these men are ones in need that I can reach out to and help sometimes it is the other way around. We can call each other up at a moments notice and tell them I need your help and they will be there. But you know what? They aren't in my church. I have crossed denominational lines, one Methodist, one Pentecosal/Charismatic/ and one Presbyterian that are among the closest.



Jesse has nothing on Tony Evans. My favorite quote from Tony:" Why do some of you get upset when sinners sin? That's what sinners are supposed do!"




Well, Paul did pontificate at a premium, but he paid purpose to his pontification. Now, there I go!lol

Yes, exactly. Give us theology in the conference, give us application to make it useful. But at the conference recently that took place, its purpose was to expose men to basic theology and mostly evangelistic in nature.