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I really was not trying to draw a line in the sand, since much has bee debated both ways extensively. It would depend I suppose, on how one views a federal headship type in conjunction with an “alls equal” approach. I confess I would find it difficult to have a woman lead the church in an elder-type position. That being said there are plenty of women leading a successful ministry. I presuppose that as it was then in the O.T. & N.T. era, that it was a type of federal headship aka trinity, for example, whereas a subordinate relationship exists, yet obviously in the trinity all are equal and yet distinct. Probably not the best case example, but it has its merits in thinking of Palestinian life of eons gone by. I suppose it fair to say what was done then is not necessarily done today, but it does seem to crop up a dilemma in church leadership. When woman take leadership roles (Not taking aim at woman in ministry, need to clarify this) such as Paula white, I wonder is it fruitful for the whole body. Men by nature present strength, security, leadership and unfortunate sometimes indecisive decisions’ on the go. Ladies warm and nurturing, caring, tenderness compassion and so on and so forth; were do children go to when there hurt Mom or Dad?
So my best guess would be that it would be different dynamics for men & woman of biblical times. It was the culture, climate and duties of each that combined, formed the family that worshipped Yahweh. God used all aspects to have his words prophesized to his people, once in a while a woman did the task at hand, no more, no less. God in his providence used the culture, agriculture, federal headship to fulfill his purpose. The question for today is, what does it mean for us…

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Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

The genuine notion expressed by many here that they do not intend to denigrate women or reduce their worth is nice to hear. However well intentioned though, it does appear to be faulty, not least because it is often we men saying it. In a sense, it is inherently patronising not to let an individual woman decide for herself. The 'equal but different' thing could just as easily lead us to think that women should do all the housework.

or worse, that women should not do the house painting or appliance repair or lawn mowing.

My wife does two out of three of those. The other one we outsource.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

Good choice of partner.

Perhaps is is patronising of me to suggest that you CHOSE her, instead of the other way around. Did you know that there is a species of jellyfish in which the female egg has been filmed approaching several sperm and choosing which one to couple with? Now that's what I call feminism!

Why is it not patronizing to refuse to let God choose for Himself? As I have tried to say before, God starts with a different premise than you do. Your view is hierarchical while God's view is relational.

Our Lord uses one particular illustration 3 times in the Gospels:






If one would leave God out of the picture, than one could well argue that allowing individuals to choose their own destinies would be the best choice, but in addition to our Creator, there are many other people in His creation which must be considered before we may state that an individual may exercise their will without restraint.

I would encourage you to consider the claim which our maker has on our lives - whatever position one may hold about gender and ministry.

John

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"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn

Pastorjohn

Are you saying in the "ultimate design" Men are the head of the church, while women are the body?


(not a question to start debate...just making sure i understand.)


Personally. If this is the case.. thats one thing, I think that the bible makes it clear that God has made exceptions. with Deborah or Esther as Queen.

I think Women and Men need to understand the idea behind out of all of this... Men are 1st in line to be the "Preachers", i mean in war... we send the men first... to protect our women.. Prophets go under a harsher judgment... i think God is protecting his Eve... furthermore... Men need Women... I know i do.. Someone to care for me when i am weak and sick... Women are the protectors of Men while Men also protect their house.. it is not meant to be sent out as a harsh judgment. I think it is how God sees a loving family. No one is in a higher position... just different occupations within the Church/Family.

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To Live is Christ, To Die Is Gain

The pauline texts that have been quoted speak very clearly about how Christ commands things to be done in His church. The O.T. texts record some history that are certainly worthy of study, but they are not speaking directly of the church.

The culture of the day has also been mentioned, but that has nothing to do with the very clear statements of Paul. Paul's writings were either "God breathed" or they were not. If they were not in their total entirety (redundancy for emphasis) exactly what God wanted Paul to write, then we have no choice but to discard them all, or to set up our self as judge of which parts of the Bible are actually God's words.

It is very clear from Paul's writings that women are in no way regarded as inferior to men but they are clearly assigned different roles. The differences between men and women are huge. These days we know that even their very brains are formed differently in the womb. Is it then surprising that god created men and woman for different purposes. In our garage, we have screw drivers and pliers. Neither is better that the other, but we carefully choose which we use for which purposes. In the case of men and women in the church, God has given us much instruction.

God created women to be a help suitable to the man. We men are very foolish if we disregard their wisdom. As a church leader, God has provided much wisdom to me through my wife. She is God's greatest earthly gift to me and has been of major benefit to our local church through her ministry to children and other women and through her ministry to me. A lot has happened in our church because of insights God has given me through her. She in noway comes behind the men in the church, but God has ordained (commanded) that the men be the leaders.

Wise words! Welcome to the forum, EV.

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"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him." (John 14:21)

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The underlying premise of your statement is: the Bible is flawed; it contains errors; and cannot be trusted.

I don't accept that premise.

God is perfectly capable of using flawed men to transmit his message (even allowing them to inject their own personality and writing style into the text) and at the same time ensuring that the message they conveyed was the exact one God wanted conveyed--no more and no less.

That's the premise I use when reading the Bible.

agreed