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Actually, 1 John begins with "ο ην απ αρχης" (which was from beginning). The more literal translations such as the RV, ESV and KJV have merely supplied the understood pronoun, "that", at the beginning of the verse and do a good job of rendering the original text in such a way that the parallel with John's gospel can be seen.

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Ummm maybe. It could just be the people in the forum he's writing from. He can't mean the whole church because the recipients were of they church and are explicitly explained NOT being in fellowship.

So, you see that John writes to a group, saying that his group (both have variables and aren't absolute as to whom the group IS but we know who it is not) is in a point of maturity the audience isn't.

Would anyone argue against that?

John's epistle has always been considered a "catholic" or general epistle to the Church at large and the internal evidence of the epistle itself supports that view. Reasonably, therefore, he was writing to believers of various maturity levels among whom were some that may not have been genuine believers (as is common in churches today) and among whom there were probably enquiring unbelievers (as is also common in churches today). In that case, his various comments would be directed at various groups within his wider audience in much the same way that any Sunday morning sermon might be. That makes more sense to me than assuming that everything he said was directed at one narrowly defined group of people.



Why are you sure the body of believers will lead us astray at the time of the antichrist?

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many are called few are chosen.

The anti-Christ will be more of a cause or philosophy than a person I think, and so those in teh church in abundance at the time of the Return will be wrong is what I understand.

Quite frankly from there I don't think I want to be on the most popular opinion's side.
'

Well, I don't see any reason from Scripture to think that believers will be led astray at the time of antichrist. Jesus warned in Matthew 24 of false prophets, false Christs, and false signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if possible. That qualification in Matthew 24:24, "if possible", suggests to me that as notable and deceptive as the false prophets, false Christs and false miracles might be, the elect will not be deceived by them.

Mt 24:24 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Context (NET)

The "elect" are of course those who are "in Christ", those who are "believers".

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How many is many, how few is few?

The anti christ will be something that makes so much sense the masses will bow over to it I'm betting. IF there is a person headlining it, I expect they will be pretty impressive, miracles and the whole bit. The result will be less than pleasant and will sucker people in to stuff that makes sense in a humanistic sense, like the rules referenced in col 2:9-11ish area.

The world is ripe for that stuff.

OK. I just wondered if you had a scriptural reason for your belief. But we are off-topic here and should start another thread if you want to pursue this.

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Well it's a matter of perception. Those at the time that join the Anti Christ movement, will by ALL MEANS be the ones declaring THEY are the believers. How do you KNOW you aren't one of those now?

There is ZERO way of knowing from the inside that I can see you putting into words that will mean the same to all people on earth. Once you think you are there, it's full speed ahead, we feel justified and we move forward. THAT is how the a-christ will take the believers, they weren't believers in the first place. Many were called, few were chosen.

I feel we have to look at all of 1 John as a whole to get the full meaning behind the message. If you pick just a few versuses and try and disect them, you can make them say whatever you want for the most part. I feel the writer was directing his message to a church, but his message could be delivered to those outside of the church as well.

I agree, and you are right ... that is why it is so important to look at the context.

joy

Dinah

Dinah,

I agree that the addition of the introductory phrase takes away rather than adds to the clarity. Without the phrase we get the immediate - and accurate - impression that John is jumping in head-first to what he needs to proclaim. Fasten your seat belts, we're going on a ride...

I'm not sure what the translators think they are accomplishing when they "make amends" such as this.

p.

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Hay! A forum sub-site all about 1John! Why didn't anyone mention this, when I first started posting ... ummm, or was it assumed that I already knew?

Interesting ...

I hope it's all right to keep posting here--I think Bible studies and commentaries are of timeless interest. My primary reaction is fascination in the shifts in emphasis about Jesus' primary mission: in the Synoptic Gospels it was to proclaim the Kingdom of God (Matthew usually liked to say of Heaven), then John's Gospel stressed Light (Truth/Wisdom), now here the focus is Eternal Life.
I love the thought that we are His Kingdom, hopefully coming closer to fulfillment each day. I wish we would more actively and Joyfully celebrate His Kingdom, our Kingdom, even as we try to improve ourselves day by day.

John's style of writing--I'll call it mystical for lack of a better word--and hope someone will suggest a more appropriate term, always surprises me anew, whether here or in his Gospel. I think these first verses have to be presented in poetic form, because they are not in prose sentence structure. Perhaps John reflects most accurately Jesus' method of speaking.
I suppose some people are drawn most effectively to believe by the Markan, direct, logical, historic style, and others by John's indirect, mystical, ambiguous style, so that hopefully perhaps the majority will come to believe, although Jesus certainly did not seem to expect it. It seems to me a wonderful miracle that about a quarter of the world's people today profess to seek to understand, believe, and follow Jesus, despite so much persecution; surely it is not a surprise, nor a sin, that not all Christians are exactly on the same page (in understanding). I think it is most important that we seek love and cooperation in helping one another and following His Instructions.
If John wanted us to agree exactly on what he meant by God is Light, would he not have explained it to us more clearly?