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to begin

1 John 1:1-4 1 This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life – 2 and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). 3 What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). 4 Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. Context (NET)

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all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

I.Howard Marshall's introduction to the Epistles of John in the NICNT is wonderful ... and something we should always remember, something we should always keep before our eyes :



In the Greek "This is what we proclaim to you" is not there, some translations (including the NET) add it to improve the meaning ... but for me it actually takes away from it . The letter begins :

"From the beginning ..."

What really grabs me about this prologue is its similarity to the beginning of John's Gospel .... the insistence on personal testimony . .... John emphasizes that his own eyes have seen, his own hands have actually touched, the reality of the Incarnate Son of God .... he is trying to describe the indescribable .... a reality that obviously was as real, and as amazing to him even after many years.

This makes me think .... is it possible to have an effective witness that is not as passionate, and as personal as this? .... yes it is possible to give the facts about Christ, it is possible to know the Scriptures well, even the original languages well, but unless it is deeply personal, and we can say "He is alive, because He lives in me!" ... with that same awe, wonder and delight ... then will it have any long-lasting effect?

Again to quote I.Howard Marshall :


Many of these problems are still with us today.

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I believe that the NET and other versions accurately translate the verse because English speakers do not put the main verb almost 50 words into a sentence - so while I agree with much of your thought - the verb would have been read/understood by the Greek reader back into the first part of the sentence.

John

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Pastor John C. Blackburn

Thanks for starting this post off.

I see little to nothing to argue about on what has been presented.

I was surprised to see your quotee say, "God who is light and who cannot therefore tolerate sin. ..."

If we are to admit that comment and accept it as a given, where I'm set apart in this conversation seems to be granted to me in the long run. I'll grant even from that agreement the conversation is long and taxing.

So, at this point, I'm in the class nodding my head, taking notes, not even raising my hand yet. Would you rather I let you pace the conversation, rather than me putting the "issues" that usually draw the most ire from my views?

I'm taking this as a very open dialogue where you know at least in part that we aren't on teh same page. I don't think that is a big deal, I'm not here to win you over, but I do want to hear the arguments and have mine addressed...

I'd add one caveat that I don't think is often noted in what I've read.

When John says he wants the readers to be in fellowship with "us" and that the "US" is in fellowship with Father and son, it shows the audience as being one that is not now in fellowship with the Father and son.

For some people this makes a big difference regarding who and when are people "in fellowship" with God. And what state of maturity are they in for that fellowship.

Clearly this would amend the views of some on what was said later to people in this epistle by recognizing they are not what John is with God.

Xian

“God who is light and who cannot therefore tolerate sin” … is a standard understanding of both this text … and also the testimony of the rest of the bible.

But again, the danger is (as always) that we will try to “use” the Bible to prove a particular point of view, rather than listening to the Holy Spirit speak through the whole witness of the Bible.

I come to this Bible study, as I approach any and every Bible study …. That is, I come to the Word of God to learn …. And what also happens is what Paul says to Timothy, I find that I am taught, but also reproved, corrected and trained in righteousness as needed.

I am interested in finding what the text actually says by using the best scholarship I can find that will tell me what the original words mean in their context, and what the original readers would have understood when they heard them (because as we all know language changes with time and culture). Then, I want to listen to the Body of Christ …. Both what others say who have the expertise to speak, but also to the insights of godly men and women both those from the beginning of the church, and those here now. As I understand it, that is one of the purposes of this forum, that we share with each other, and encourage each other.

Lastly, I pray and meditate on the text … and listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to me through it. I then compare this with what I have learned to make sure I am not being deceived.

Though it sounds laborious … it is not, it only appears so because I have tried to describe the process …. Rather I always find it to be pure joy.

So, I don’t have an agenda, nor do I have a point to prove ….. but if you do, then I don’t know that there will be any great benefit …. It will depend on your approach.

I disagree with your last point …. I rather think John is speaking to the church he is writing to, and wanting them to stay in fellowship with all the family of God. I think the rest of the letter points in this direction.

It is possible to be out of fellowship with God without losing your salvation …. But it does make you miserable.

Of course, every church on this earth consists of those who are truly God’s children and those who are not, but are merely going through the motions. But I think John is also proposing one of the tests for this, because a true child of God does not like to sin, and is miserable when they do. It is for this that John gives the blessed remedy.

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And if those scholars are wrong. The pharisees were the leading scholars of their time. They were blinded by much of the same hubris I think makes this such a tough topic anyway. I find solace in if I ask, seek, and knock that the Spirit will provide. Part of that is answering other's arguments and learning from the arguments, and admitting when I'm wrong. My question, RESPECTFULLY, is... if you found a new train of thought, that seemed cogent yet went against what another person said about that topic, would you investigate against the grain and find your own answer, or is it more comfortable to leave our understandings to accepting the consensus? This isn't an "attitude" question. But many won't question, they feel it's not faithful to, and I find scripture teaches to.

Absolutely we agree here.
This scares me. Here's why. I'm not opposed to listening to others, I thrive on hearing their agreements and disagreements because it sharpens my understanding, I win either way. BUT at the time of the anti christ I'm sure the body of believers will lead us astray. There needs to be more preparedness to work out our own salvation, than leaning on the body. AND I DO NOT ASSUME you are guilty of that. I'm talking in general.

In logic it's an appeal to authority. Their expertise doesn't make them right. But I listen to them when/where I have the option.The ones who really live their lives for God, I would value same as you. This is what I don't hope for, that the conversation becomes one more conversion attempt on the poor guy that has it all wrong,(me). What I do hope for is the exchange of ideas. What I usually find is the other side will disregard anything that isn't in agreement with their presuppositions. I worry though, that you feel it all depends on my approach. That sort of sounds like a subconscious assumption back in there somewhere...

I find that problematic in that he says specifically fellowship with God, and he wants them to JOIN HIM not remain in Him. That seems a real stretch, but it does make for a convenient posture when dealing with other verses later in the letter. I know many teach just what you said, and can make some appealling arguments. I think the appeal is to self assurance more than what it says though. Should we start on that point before we move forward?I find the letter deals with more sanctification, maturity, etc.. than salvation, don't you?

and the word "LIKE" isn't in any of those verses that I can recall. That really seems to me to be a concept that is added to the words, rather than finding out what they really mean. It seems that people can't make sense of what they read the first time, so they assume it must mean something else. Had gideon felt that way, he would have traded in the pots and horns for shields and swords. Would he have had the same success?


D, my comments above are direct. There is NO personal angst or issue with you. I can't type voice inflection into the messages, and often I am not clear or am misunderstood because of my direct approach. I hope you take this as merely trying to be brutally honest in perception and truth, so we can move forward with less misunderstandings. That is my hope.

be well.

Well, I had hoped this convo wouldn't die.

I liked "dcljoy"'s noting of the similarity with the start of John's gospel, but I agreed with John's response that such was probably necessary to convey good English.

But I wonder if there is any way at all to translate the sentence keeping good sense in English, but keeping the parallels between the start of this epistle and gospel. Anyone?

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Anthony Forsyth
Pastor, Calvary Bible Church Medway

Whoa, I'm lost, which sentence are you speaking of? I tried to get back to find the notes, but I need a pointer, or that green bouncing ball from sesame street to help me find my way.

3rd post

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Anthony Forsyth
Pastor, Calvary Bible Church Medway

Xian,

Just a note of clarification...the "our" and "us" is not a reference to the Father and Son, but a reference to the universal church (or even other Christian workers with John) that is thought of in some relation to John speaking to the others of the specific church in need of this message. He says, "our fellowship is with the Father and with His son Jesus Christ". That speaks of a contrasted relationship between himself and the Godhead, while still speaking of an intimate fellowship. The "our" is other believers and not the Father, nor the Son.

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Agreed, John

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"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn