The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

1 John 2:12-17 12 I am writing to you, little children, that your sins have been forgiven because of his name. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, that you have known him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young people, that you have conquered the evil one. 14 I have written to you, children, that you have known the Father. I have written to you, fathers, that you have known him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young people, that you are strong, and the word of God resides in you, and you have conquered the evil one. 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, 16 because all that is in the world (the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the arrogance produced by material possessions) is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 And the world is passing away with all its desires, but the person who does the will of God remains forever. Context (NET)

I am writing to you, little children,
that your sins have been forgiven because of his name.
I am writing to you, fathers,
that you have known him who has been from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young people,
that you have conquered the evil one.

I have written to you, children,
that you have known the Father.
I have written to you, fathers,
that you have known him who has been from the beginning.
I have written to you, young people,
that you are strong, and the word of God resides in you,
and you have conquered the evil one.


I have always found verses 12 to 14 puzzling, why does John repeat himself? …. But it helps me when they are set out as poetry instead of prose …. Of course, in poetry it is not unusual to repeat things in slightly different words or in slightly different ways to emphasize a point.

I tend to agree with the explanation that sees this as a commentary on the total experience of the Christian life, rather than as addressed to different sets of people.

We are children of God only through the Name of Christ, and …. as the children of God we know the Father.

We should all be progressing to maturity in our knowledge of God so as to be, or become ‘fathers’ or elders in the faith.

We are all to be strong in the faith, in the power of the Holy Spirit, because we have a powerful enemy, and there is a victory to be won!

And then …… Ouch! …. John goes straight to the heart of the battle …. Our desires!

“the world” stands for all that is in opposition to God …. And also, all that diverts us from our focus on God. This means anything can become a cause of sin …. Even good things.

In fact, on a personal level, it is the way the devil uses good things to lead me astray that most often trips me up. I can usually see the really bad things, and have learnt to run to the Father for help and protection. But the good things, that ever so slowly, ever so subtly divert me …. So that I begin to take my eyes off God …. Until when I finally look back, and am horrified at the distance.


And there you have it …. The message that our western culture so does not want to hear. We are so attached to our possessions.

May God have mercy on us.

_________________
Forum Code of Conduct
Forum Statement of Beliefs

In the poetry of verses 12-14, I notice how John changes tense in his repeat. I'm not sure it has anything important to do with the meaning of the verses, but it is interesting.
I for one think it is a beautiful and touching poem full of emotion and care. I don't think "little children" in verse 12 is actual children, but his audience as a whole. The Greek term, teknon, is often used as an expression of "affectionate address." Very touching indeed.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

Very "John" <g>
Touching, like Philemon...

Children, Fathers, Young people are believers but why not just Children or Little ones?
The translation makes "young men" inclusive (people), but not Fathers (parents).
I noticed the speaker's tense as well but it goes further: The "subject" tense is always past tense until 15: "sins have been forgiven," "you have known him" "have conquered the evil one" "have known the father" "have known him" and a repeat of "have conquered the evil one." (I'm obviously not an English major so bear with me

While carnality is there I also see the materialism too. The idol of consumerism...
Worldly culture. In the past two years I can tolerate television less and less--most mass entertainment is downright evil. Esp. the cop shows. "The Office" (American version, Dinah) is the only popular show I try to watch, and I miss that half the time.
That's just me. I'm not prudish in the least if something has redeeming value--I just don't see much redeeming value!
S

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

that was why it made the best sense to me as poetry .... I.Howard Marshall's idea ((NICNT) which I happily borrowed.

I find it amazing that the NT letters "fit" into our western culture better and better .... what worries me is that it "fits" most of those who would call themselves Christians as well.

Just from my observations, it is increasingly hard to tell the Christians apart from the society in which we live .... we do the same things, say the same things, want the same things, buy the same things, listen to the same music, go to the same movies .... watch the same TV shows.

What is worse (for me), is that I can see (sometimes) in my own life how far I have slipped into compromise - it is becoming increasingly difficult not to.... that is why I said 'ouch!'

That is also why something like Overcomer is doing - i.e. Spiritual Formation .... is so desperately important. But notice there has not been any rush to participate ... which saddens me.

The only truly counter-cultural, well known, Christian that I know is John Piper ... I am hoping and praying that there are others.

in Christ

Dinah

_________________
Forum Code of Conduct
Forum Statement of Beliefs

I think some of that isn't necessarily a bad thing. For many years Christians had their own culture that was exclusive while at the same time mirroring secular culture. We just had our own vocabulary. Look how much Christians spend on "Christian" stuff. We are just as addicted to consumerism as the rest of the world, but apparently it was fine because it was "Christian." People outside Christianity saw that we were pretty hypocritical, condemning the "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude while at the same time doing the same thing. We twisted Paul's words so that we were of the world, but not in the world.
This is an excerpt from an article about the Christian Bookseller Association's convention in 2003.


As for Spiritual Formation, I think sometimes it is associated with the Emergent Church movement. In the theological circles I have experience with, that's a dirty word. Due to the fact that some in the E.C. movement are hardly orthodox in belief, anything that resembles what they do is immediately condemned - throwing out the whole bin because of some bad apples.
After agreeing with an Emergent Church leader about how many evangelical church services are "self-focused and the evangelism of the church is irrelevant and weak" Ron Bigalke says,

They recoil at the term "Spiritual Formation" because it has been used by Emergents, and anything used by the Emergents is "unbiblical." And these are scholars, mind you, at respected Christian colleges!

Psychobobicus wrote:



I have never been at such a convention and can't speak to what happens there. But, as a Christian writer who knows many other Christian writers, I can tell you that the need to market one's work exists for Christians just as much as it does non-Christians. I have friends who recently had a novel published. They have been appearing on many radio and television shows to promote their book as well as attending book-signings. What's the use of writing a work of fiction or non-fiction and not have anyone read it? We write to be read. And if we believe we have something worth reading, we tell people about it every chance we get and every honest way we can. I see nothing wrong with that. The Bible does say we are not to hide our lights under a bushel, eh?

Psychobobicus wrote:



That's news to me. Spiritual formation itself is as old as God's Word. It has been taught from Paul onward and is entirely Biblical. The fact that an "unbiblical" movement has grabbed the term and given it a bad name is sad. But it suggests that, if people don't recognize it as totally Biblical and part of what it means to be an authentic Christian in a relationship with Jesus, then they themselves were never taught about it properly at some point in their lives and need to be educated now. Mormons have stolen all kinds of Christian terms and misinterpreted and redefined them, but we don't give up the terms and avoid using them just because they have been hijacked and used incorrectly by some misguided souls. We simply educate people about the truth and the real Biblical meaning of those terms.

Having said that, my apologies to DInah for veering away from the topic of the thread although, I guess, if I really stretched it, I could say that my "light under a bushel" reference is an indirect tie-in with the topic of living in the light!!!

'Bobicus

insightful comments ....



actually, this is just an illustration of what I was saying .... calling something "Christian" does not change what it essentially is .... and the whole problem has been, and still is .... is that this is exactly what we have been doing ..... living as the 'world' lives, but just branding our version of it "Christian" - no wonder they call us hypocrites!



Yes, sadly this attitude is all too common .... and from people who should know better! I think it stems from the Reformation where anything even remotely associated with the Roman Catholic church was seen as the work of the devil. How dare we! .... are we saying that the Holy Spirit abandoned the Church from the time of the Apostles until the Reformation?

The result was that much that was good and true was thrown out together with what was evil and/or wrong.

But Spiritual Formation is no different to anything else we, as human beings, do. It all depends on our motivation (which was the point Jesus was making in so much of His teaching) .... if what we are seeking is a closer relationship with God, and finding a way of making our prayer-life richer and more meaningful (which of course naturally results in greater obedience and so a changed lifestyle) ... then Spiritual Formation is very effective.

If our motivation is to benefit ourselves .... seeking in effect to 'use' God. Or, to appear holier than those around us ... which is a matter of pride. Or any other reason than seeking God for Himself alone ..... then it becomes as useless as anything else.

What these highly trained, brilliant men do not see, is their own adherence to ideas that are more in line with Greek Philosophy than the Bible, and their great danger of succumbing to spiritual pride.

The Bible has no problems with either emotion or experience .... as long as these are solidly grounded in God.

in Christ

Dinah

_________________
Forum Code of Conduct
Forum Statement of Beliefs

Psychobob,

You read REASON magazine?!?! I take back the hundreds of nasty things I have said behind your back (that's a joke, PBob I first subscribed to REASON in about 1979.
Peace
S

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Someone wrote (Overcomer?):
"I have never been at such a convention and can't speak to what happens there. But, as a Christian writer who knows many other Christian writers, I can tell you that the need to market one's work exists for Christians just as much as it does non-Christians. I have friends who recently had a novel published. They have been appearing on many radio and television shows to promote their book as well as attending book-signings. What's the use of writing a work of fiction or non-fiction and not have anyone read it? We write to be read."

Your thoughts on this are appreciated. If I could avoid Marketing, appearances, radio, TV, book-signings--OK, book-signings I could handle--I would be tempted to cram on my grammar and writing library and produce! Until I have a spouse to hide behind ( to do the PR) I can't see it happening. Today, it's the marketing: most material is lame. Suck up to Oprah and you are an overnight millionaire. Have you made a successful living off of writing in a cost/benefit way?
S

_________________
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Serendipity wrote:



My apologies for being so slow to answer.

Yes, I used to make a decent living as a writer when my health allowed me to pursue it full-time, but that was as a journalist, an editor and as a teacher of writing, not a writer of fiction. Only a few are able to make a living at that.