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It's not an article, it's an actual book I stumbled upon on Amazon. It's right here: http://www.amazon.com/Hard-Sayings-Jesus-Library/dp/0877849277/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=IO1P8C0RZJZQV&colid=2CY1MGRI0W3Z2. Has anyone read the book Harsh Sayings of Jesus?? I always get a little nervous to get books like this because they usually always show me how sinful and detached I am. Has anyone read this? What kind of book is this really?

Looks interesting. F. F. Bruce also wrote "The Spreading Flame" which I want to read.

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M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
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I have not read it nor even heard of it. Though that might be an interesting thread for people to post some of the "harsher" or hard teachings of Jesus. A few come to mind, though I do not know how well they would go over here based on the reaction of some other thread topics and content.

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"AKA 'barpadre' - Site Admin"

5:48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 56 (NET)

And yet people say that can never happen in this life. And Jesus challenged us, nearly commanded us. Is it the holy red herring?

_______ OR ________

17:20 “I am not praying 57 only on their behalf, but also on behalf of those who believe 58 in me through their testimony, 59 17:21 that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray 60 that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. (NET)

Here Jesus prays that we can be as united with Adonai the father as He was. Was Jesus' prayer not answered? Or is it possible. The reason is one that can't occur after this life.

Are they red herrings, or is there a plan....

I've not seen the book CF that you mention above. I like to tear the stuff apart for years until I can get my arms around it, before I hear what others want to teach you. I get scared of puttin gmy faith in what other men say, than what God Himself said. And it requires a healthy dosage of both.

bd

Yes, it looks like the list could be pretty long. The main one I was thinking of is where Jesus said of the bread and wine, "This is my body and blood", and the disciples themselves even called that a "hard teaching". Very interesting things to consider, and as I write this and consider the other conversations here and elsewhere I have had in the past few weeks and months, it seems it is the harder teachings that my church has been getting away from over the years, and others seem to be as well as I have begun to look at other traditions. It seems as we move through history, we are adhering less and less to any "harsh" or "hard" teachings and yet clinging to the easier and softer teachings more and more. That is just my observation.

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"AKA 'barpadre' - Site Admin"

How about the rich man? He asked how to have eternal life and was told to obey.
When he said he did Jesus didn't question him. I assume he was obedient. Remember the samaritan woman at the well? Jesus had no problem calling her out did he?

Jesus didn't challenge him at all matter of fact. BUT when the rich man said he Did that, Jesus said,



There is one thing more you must do if you would be perfect....

ANd paints the picture of dying and being reborn again.

So the rich man went to heaven according to Jesus I think.... but he wasn't fully mature.



Giving it all up, is that not a harsh saying? How complete that was???

bd

Yes, EXACTLY! I have had similar conversations surrounding this passage in Sunday School classes for years. Specifically, is Jesus calling all of us to sell all we have and give it to the poor? Or is he ONLY talking about a far deeper conviction that we give up our souls to him, give up our will, live as he wants us to live...even if it is "uncomfortable" and possibly even, (heaven forbid) "unAmerican"? Our conversations usually then go back to the money. People will sit and say, "well, I know if God called ME to sell everything and give it away, I would do it". Ya, right. I usually say, "Well, do you think Jesus was ONLY talking to the rich young ruler?" I am still unsure as to what my answer to that question is, but I think too often I have fooled myself in saying that I could easily sell all of my toys and give them away.

Harder still is to die to myself every hour of every day and live only for and through Him.

Like you are saying, when Jesus throws out one of these harsh sayings, we tend to water it down and paraphrase, and say, "He didn't really mean THIS, but rather this, which is so much easier to do (or believe) anyway." Actually, my pastor actually did quite a bit of watering down yesterday, though I hate to bring all that up again. He also made absolutely no mention of Pentecost. I was quite surprised.

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"AKA 'barpadre' - Site Admin"

It's just being being a wuss.

I ordered it from Amazon. It'll be here tomorrow and I can get right into it. I never really liked books like this because I see just how far off the path I really am, but I guess that's good.

how do you qualify a book like that, to make sure it's not leading you down a wrong path?

One help in deciding ... what do you know of the author?

Anything by F F Bruce should be fine, imo. It will be scholarly, evangelical in tone, soundly biblical.

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Yeah, I've seen some of his works recommended by a church I know pretty well. Not this specific book, but the church I listen to has recommended other works by this author.

I don't know how off balance it can be. I'm assuming all the things in the book are all things Jesus said so I do want to learn more about those "hard" sayings.

I'm not arguing about the author here, but....

Doesn't it scare people that the Church today is so influenced by people writing books to tell us how to be Christian? Even the early church fathers we most admire fell into other non mainstream sects sometimes.

Isn't part of deciding who to read, sort of like "who do we allow into our holy huddle"? These are NOT accusations as much as conversation starters. And it's my fear. Many people make some really good arguments that are very tempting to believe and NOT grounded well scripturally. Even though they are riddled with scripture.

It seems the counselor best (but not only) speaks to us through life and the written word. I'd say my fear is, if more of my time is spent learning what others believe I should believe in a book, than I spend in THE book, I'm out of balance.

This makes total sense, Xian. On the other hand, I see the other danger as well, and it is borne out on forums such as this. When we are all left to just ourselves and our bibles, we can all end up with different interpretations. Are we all right? I would doubt it. I see places like in Acts where Philip had to explain the scriptures to the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian was able to read, but he did not understand to whom Isaiah was pointing. Philip explains it, and also taught him about baptism because the Ethiopian practically begs to be baptized once he was converted.

I saw all that only to temper what you said. Yes, we must be VERY careful as to who and what we read, especially if we are already a little unsure in our faith. How does one weed through the true and the not-so-true and the outright false statements made by some writers (even the early fathers?). I think to answer that question would answer many other questions and disagreements that are in Christianity today. At some point there must be a common standard to measure our thoughts and ideas against. The easy answer is to say, "My only standard of truth is the bible!" Well, read the first paragraph of this post again. What we REALLY mean by that statement is this, "My only standard is my own personal interpretation of what I read in the bible!" Also, are we not glad that we can read today? A short study of history would show that this has been a rare and recent occurrance indeed, which would lead me to believe that one of the major purposes of the bible was NOT so that every person on the planet could read and interpret for him/herself, though that is a rather new idea for me.

Another answer might be, "The Holy Spirit will always guide you and me and all of us into all truth." While that is true and biblical, somehow the interpretation does not quite work, does it? I mean, if the Holy Spirit were truly guiding ALL of us individually 100% of the time, we would agree on all things spiritual, right? Or at least we would all agree on the "essential" things of the Christian faith...if we could first agree on what the essentials even are.

Another answer would be, "Whatever my church teaches and believes is therefore true." Well, there are lots of churches, are there not? So can all the churches be right? I started with some of these basic questions on a new thread the other day called, "What is the purpose of..." and this subject might be better dealt with over there.

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"AKA 'barpadre' - Site Admin"

I have very different beliefs from some of you regarding sanctification. I can defend my beliefs til the cows come home, and have many many times, but still don't see reason to change my views. I am convinced, so far, that my view is exactly what the bible teaches. You guys will disagree with me. I share my views, NOT to convince you, although I'm not against you being convinced, but to sharpen my beliefs. If I'm wrong, I won't find out how until I get revelation.

Seems God chooses to revelate via His people. I need to rub the iron together, shake the rust off, make some sparks and be tried in my beliefs with other people. The spirit works more with people than any other way, yes? AND it makes sense that people are made to work with people in the church. <<< about 45 million verses come to mind there....

So I use you guys to keep me honest and tried. Really I use people in my life more than you, but it's all examples of the same.

Very well said, Xian. I concur.

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"AKA 'barpadre' - Site Admin"